WI: Second American Civil War of 1876

(This question was inspired by the Josh Sullivan video about the stolen presidency of Tilden)

In 1876, the United States almost enter in a civil war after the disputed election between Samuel Tilden and Rutherford Hayes, with a mob shooting at the the republcian candidate house in the period between the election and the certification (in wich a deal was made to end reconstruction in exchange for Hayes certification).

What if Hayes was killed and a second civil war, 15 years after the first, started? who will be the winner and what states or groups would side with each side? Could a Tilden victory in the war mean the end of the Electoral College? Would reconstruction comeback if the republicans win?
 
The idea that Tilden was robbed is such a joke because if it wasn't for the suppression of the black vote by the Klan, amongst others, the Republicans would have won a couple more states in the South. The Klan was just the paramilitary wing of the Democratic party at that point. I would love to see a TL where the South rises in early 1877 in response to the "theft" of the election and Grant hammers them by creating a black army led by James Longsteet to put them down.

Really, in a second Civil War in 1877, the Democrats would really have no chance. Even the pro-Democrats in the army like Hancock will not take up arms in alliance with ex-Confederates. I think that is why Tilden never tried it. There was little chance he could win.
 
The North would of course win and likely much more quickly, but long term this would be very bad for the US. Repeated North vs South conflicts is how you go from the US South having a regional identity that was only pushed into secession by fears of being forced to end slavery to the US South viewing itself as a genuinely separate nation
 
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The idea that Tilden was robbed is such a joke because if it wasn't for the suppression of the black vote by the Klan, amongst others, the Republicans would have won a couple more states in the South. The Klan was just the paramilitary wing of the Democratic party at that point. I would love to see a TL where the South rises in early 1877 in response to the "theft" of the election and Grant hammers them by creating a black army led by James Longsteet to put them down.

Really, in a second Civil War in 1877, the Democrats would really have no chance. Even the pro-Democrats in the army like Hancock will not take up arms in alliance with ex-Confederates. I think that is why Tilden never tried it. There was little chance he could win.
Grant wouldn't commit political suicide like that. Some northerners cared about ending slavery and many, maybe most, northerners cared about preserving the Union. But I don't think anyone would stomach an army of black Americans putting down rebellion. They know what war is, and all the crimes and terrors that come with it. The north covered in sundown towns won't tolerate that.
 
But I don't think anyone would stomach an army of black Americans putting down rebellion.

They accepted (for at least some grudging, conditional value of) the USCT during the historical American Civil War. "That's totally different!" seems an odd claim even for the 19th century North.
 
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They accepted (for at least some grudging, conditional value of) the USCT during the historical American Civil War. "That's totally different!" seems an odd claim even for the 19th century North.
But "That's totally different" probably sums up American Exceptionalism. 😋
 
They accepted (for at least some grudging, conditional value of) the USCT during the historical American Civil War. "That's totally different!" seems an odd claim even for the 19th century North.
Yeah, all the USCT soldiers, making up only 10% of the army. So it's easy to keep them from doing what the leaders would want white soldiers to do. A mostly black army is totally different.
 
Grant wouldn't commit political suicide like that. Some northerners cared about ending slavery and many, maybe most, northerners cared about preserving the Union. But I don't think anyone would stomach an army of black Americans putting down rebellion. They know what war is, and all the crimes and terrors that come with it. The north covered in sundown towns won't tolerate that.
I didn't mean the whole army would be African American. The Republicans could fairly easily wave the bloody shirt and paint the Democrats as neo-Confederates (or in this case, the real deal Confederates) to get more than enough support among whites as well. At the time, one of the Republican's most effective campaign slogans was "not every Democrat was a traitor, but every traitor was a Democrat".

The truthfulness of that statement aside, it wouldn't be hard to have every Republican newspaper at the time run a variation of "they're at it again! Rally 'round the flag boys!" and "worse outrage since Ft. Sumter!" and get huge support.

On the positive side, if the Democrats, especially Southern Democrats fight, it would be a great way to once and for all break the back of the Southern planters.
 
I didn't mean the whole army would be African American. The Republicans could fairly easily wave the bloody shirt and paint the Democrats as neo-Confederates (or in this case, the real deal Confederates) to get more than enough support among whites as well. At the time, one of the Republican's most effective campaign slogans was "not every Democrat was a traitor, but every traitor was a Democrat".

The truthfulness of that statement aside, it wouldn't be hard to have every Republican newspaper at the time run a variation of "they're at it again! Rally 'round the flag boys!" and "worse outrage since Ft. Sumter!" and get huge support.

On the positive side, if the Democrats, especially Southern Democrats fight, it would be a great way to once and for all break the back of the Southern planters.
Well in that case, maybe northerners would cut their losses and just let them go. Obviously the southerners want to leave the Union. Unless the southern states are treated as colonies, what legal way is there to keep them down?
 
But I don't think anyone would stomach an army of black Americans putting down rebellion
A black army attacking white southerners would be a real boon for southern propaganda, and would only inflame tensions and create a Sectarianism style Protestant vs Catholic in Northern Ireland between whites And blacks in the South. In short, a bad idea
 
This article seems relevant - it's long but very informative. There's a real possibility of McClellan leading a march on Washington on behalf of the Democrats. And there would be a number of northerners, including the New York state government, who would play their cards in with the Democrats.

Another thing is what this does with labor. The Great Strike of 1877 is a few months away - I wonder if a second civil war breaking out would incite that earlier, with the result being three-way chaos.
 
This article seems relevant - it's long but very informative. There's a real possibility of McClellan leading a march on Washington on behalf of the Democrats. And there would be a number of northerners, including the New York state government, who would play their cards in with the Democrats.

Another thing is what this does with labor. The Great Strike of 1877 is a few months away - I wonder if a second civil war breaking out would incite that earlier, with the result being three-way chaos.
This sounds like a crazy timeline idea!
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
The idea that Tilden was robbed is such a joke because if it wasn't for the suppression of the black vote by the Klan, amongst others, the Republicans would have won a couple more states in the South. The Klan was just the paramilitary wing of the Democratic party at that point.
That argument may fly in the cases where Democrats, or Republicans, were disputing the Electoral vote count in southern states, like Louisiana or South Carolina if I am remembering correctly.

But what about cases where it was Democratic allegations of Republican cheating in non-southern states, like Oregon, in the Pacific Northwest? The Democrats from time to time in this era, even in big GOP victory years like 1868, won majorities in elections in some northern states like New Jersey and New York with significant electoral votes, where they had no paramilitary edge.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
I've last heard this concept as a PoD brought up a couple decades ago.

Somebody, and maybe it was in published fiction, proposed the idea of Custer surviving Little Big Horn, becoming the Democratic nominee, having an election as disputed as Tilden-Hayes, and *him* not taking defeat lying down.

I think that scenario of timing was dismissed as fanciful for a Civil War, but the fanciful part might not have been so much a Civil War redux, as Custer getting such a fast political rise.

Another thing is what this does with labor. The Great Strike of 1877 is a few months away - I wonder if a second civil war breaking out would incite that earlier, with the result being three-way chaos.
This is an interesting angle.

Some people may really be inclined to fanboy this into a Civil Rights-wank and Confederate and Copperhead-punishment screw, but it might not play that way in the end, it could end up a Gilded Age screw (which did not happen) and Civil Rights screw (as ended up happening anyway), where labor gets crucial leverage from the Democratic side needing its support. If the Democratic aligned side wins, also possibly Constitutional changes boosting the House at Senate expense, since the Democratic House was backing Tilden and Republican Senate was backing Hayes.
 
This is an interesting angle.

Some people may really be inclined to fanboy this into a Civil Rights-wank and Confederate and Copperhead-punishment screw, but it might not play that way in the end, it could end up a Gilded Age screw (which did not happen) and Civil Rights screw (as ended up happening anyway), where labor gets crucial leverage from the Democratic side needing its support. If the Democratic aligned side wins, also possibly Constitutional changes boosting the House at Senate expense, since the Democratic House was backing Tilden and Republican Senate was backing Hayes.
Samuel Tilden was a wealthy, conservative railroad lawyer, a hard money man who earned his reformist credentials fighting against Tammany Hall by trying institute a property requirement for New York's elections. It is not the resume of a man who's inclined to break-bread with labor or someone to 'screw' the gilded age.

The entire scenario rests upon the, quite frankly fanciful, idea that the mercurial Tilden, who was nominally running on sectional reconciliation and civil service reform, and the blustering, indecisive McClellan, would have the verve to raise an paramilitary army to march on Washington while U.S. Grant was in the White House and still nominal commander in chief. I don't think Tilden and Little Mac had the drive to do it and I don't think there would've been much support for it, the murmurings of a handful of Democrats and ex-Confederates aside.

To back a rebellion against a lawfully (if dubiously) elected President, would be the one thing that might've inflamed Northern opinion enough to reverse the death rattle reconstruction had been trapped in since the panic of 1873. It's why I don't think the South backs Tilden, and without the South, I doubt there's much organic support for a Tilden rebellion. Tammany hates his guts, his hard money stance puts him staunchly at odds with the soft-money forces in the Democratic Party, and Bourbon Democrats are a lot of things, but as the foot soldiers of a Tildenite rebellion? Color me doubtful.
 
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Samuel Tilden was a wealthy, conservative railroad lawyer, a hard money man who earned his reformist credentials fighting against Tammany Hall by trying institute a property requirement for New York's elections. It is not the resume of a man who's inclined to break-bread with labor or someone to 'screw' the gilded age.

The entire scenario rests upon the, quite frankly fanciful, idea that the mercurial Tilden, who was nominally running on sectional reconciliation and civil service reform, and the blustering, indecisive McClellan, would the verve to raise an paramilitary army to march on Washington while U.S. Grant was in the White House and still nominal commander in chief. I don't think Tilden and Little Mac had the drive to dit and I don't think there would've been much support for it, the murmurings of a handful of Democrats and ex-Confederates aside.

To back a rebellion against a lawfully (if dubiously) elected President, would be the one thing that might've inflamed Northern opinion enough to reverse the death rattle reconstruction had been trapped in since the panic of 1873. It's why I don't think the South backs Tilden, and without the South, I doubt there's much organic support for a Tilden rebellion. Tammany hates his guts, his hard money stance puts him staunchly at odds with the soft-money forces in the Democratic Party, and Bourbon Democrats are a lot of things, but as the foot soldiers of a Tildenite rebellion? Color me doubtful.
To get to this sort of situation I would envision avoiding Hayes getting lawfully elected at all. The article I linked above mentions that Tilden was very much opposed to the House Democrats acceding to the Electoral Commission - that may be a way to start.

I think you do have a point that a lot of the stuff mentioned in the article was mere fighting words. But McClellan did construct a paramilitary organization in this period and the New York state government was readied to make him lead its state militia, and though many Democrats were hardly enthused about Tilden, they were behind him. This excerpt is revealing:


Although he did not intend to launch a first strike, privately Tilden began to prepare two intertwined cases that would box Republicans into a corner. First he defended the House's right to name him president, a necessary prelude to any claim he could make on the office. Next he asserted a state's right to forcefully resist a usurper's inauguration. While Congress would elude Tilden's control, he had better luck close to home. New York governor Lucius Robinson's January inaugural included a Tilden‐drafted section promising state resistance to the “revolutionary” overthrow of “the time‐consecrated methods of constitutional government.”57

The fractured vision of dual presidents and dual capitals also produced, in both imagination and reality, a counter‐military led by George B. McClellan.58 The leading Union general for much of the first two years of the Civil War, and an 1864 presidential candidate who lost to Lincoln, McClellan campaigned for his longtime ally Tilden across the Northeast and Midwest in 1876, urging his “fellow‐citizens and fellow‐soldiers” to resist any Republican effort to block Tilden's inauguration.59Privately he warned his mother that any effort to deny Tilden the office “must be forcible + revolutionary + must be met by force.”60Although fighting words are common, McClellan's history raises interesting questions about the boundaries between politics and the military. Fifteen years earlier, during the Civil War, many people had called on McClellan, in his telling, to “save the nation, alluding to the presidency, dictatorship, etc.” But for his love for his wife, he wrote, he might “cheerfully take the dictatorship and agree to lay down my life when the country is saved.”61 After the 1876 election, Tilden asked Governor Robinson to name McClellan the state adjutant general “in view of possible contingencies.” Following Robinson from Tilden's mansion, Bigelow urged the governor to wait, as McClellan's command of the state militia “would be a red rag to Republicans.” But Bigelow's response was strategic. Rather than denying McClellan, he convinced the governor to “reserve” the selection until it would have more impact. Bigelow's response to the event is telling. “The fact that we have to contemplate such emergencies, is a melancholy commentary upon the anniversary we have been celebrating,” he wrote. “The chances are by no means inconsiderable that our form of govt. may not survive another 4 of July without serious modifications, the results of a perhaps bloody strife.”62

As institutional processes for resolving politics broke down, new openings emerged for counter‐mobilization. McClellan began to construct what appears to have been a paramilitary organization. Because he did not save his outgoing correspondence during this period, his actions must be deciphered by reading between the lines of his incoming letters. Some are evocative but not reliable, full of vague bragging that “a little bit of war to inaugurate Mr. Tilden would do us no harm … speak the word, and you will have a hundred thousand ‘boys in blue’ and in everything else, armed, at Washington by Sunday.”63 Far‐flung soldiers promised that they were willing to “fight and die” under McClellan's banner.64More revealing, however, are letters from men working with him to organize such a resistance, including former Confederate general Dabney Maury, one of McClellan's West Point instructors. Maury urged McClellan to produce “a pose of moral and physical power too great to dare,” discussed strategic allocations of divisions, brigades, and regiments, and warned McClellan to hold units in reserve for later combat.65 In Massachusetts, former Union brigadier general John M. Tobin gathered an estimated 5,000 veterans into a Conservative Soldiers and Sailors Association. Tobin made tantalizing references to unnamed “potent considerations set forth” in a lost letter from McClellan. “The few who have seen it open their eyes wide, and it nerves them on … Any movement to which you may lend your name … would be the signal for arousing en masse here all the conservative soldiers and sailors.”66Although these letters give shape to rumors of paramilitary mobilization across the country, McClellan's intent is impossible to define precisely.
His New York office complained of a shortage of funds, a constant problem for people who worked with the legendarily cheap (and personally wealthy) Tilden. “As far as I can see I am personally stuck for the office room,” the general in charge of the New York office wrote. “To do a thing of this kind without money is quite absurd.”67

For U.S. historians, the story of a Tilden‐McClellan paramilitary organization demonstrates that stabilization was contingent upon the candidates' behavior. Here Tilden's aggressive actions conflict with contemporary and historical portrayals of his caution. Had Tilden claimed the position immediately, “his election would have been a matter of course,” Bigelow wrote. “But it was impossible. A man who must have a man rub him every morning & evening for an hour or so, who must take a clyster every morning to get a passage … how could such a man be expected to [demand the presidency] and wind up perhaps at the last in a prison?” Hyperbolic Democratic editor Henry Watterson said that he had been willing to “provide the physical means” of “seating [Tilden] in office,” but Tilden was hamstrung by his “confidence in the powers and forms of law.”68 The candidate's public silence frustrated financier August Belmont, who urged “radical boldness and recklessness” and “a revolutionary … fight.” With a careful eye to sequence, it is possible to reconcile the evidence for both Tilden's caution and his boldness. Tilden's reticence was calculated to increase pressure at a different moment, after the Democratic House of Representatives named him president.69 By refusing to threaten civil war in December, he was increasing the possibility that it might eventually come later, once two presidents had title. When Democratic congressmen threatened to derail his plan by considering a compromise, his passivity evaporated. “No need of hot haste but much danger in it,” he wrote in a midnight draft memo. The Republicans had “no way out but by usurpation.”70 Tilden lobbied congressional Democrats to simply count him the winner. When Democratic chairman Abram Hewitt told Tilden that House Democrats in fact planned to accede to an electoral commission to resolve the dispute, Tilden asked incredulously, “Why surrender now? Why surrender before the battle, for fear you may have to surrender after the battle is over?”71​

The article does get into as you say Tilden’s cautions, noted by his contemporaries. But if the crisis is not resolved by inauguration day, I do think there would be dual inaugurations. New York’s state government would be fully behind Tilden, and McClellan would lead its state militia along with paramilitaries across the nation. It would be a truly national affair in at least that way.

Granted, when I sketched this scenario myself after reading this (very fascinating) article, I also concluded the Democrats did not have the guts for a full-blown civil war, with my conclusion being that, especially with a much worse version of the Strike of 1877 happening at the same time, there’d be a dual resignation and a compromise candidate selected (perhaps David Davis). With a very chaotic 1877-1880 period following this and the 1880 election being a Grant vs. McClellan fight (with a stronger Greenback Party bolstered by the strikes).
 
To get to this sort of situation I would envision avoiding Hayes getting lawfully elected at all. The article I linked above mentions that Tilden was very much opposed to the House Democrats acceding to the Electoral Commission - that may be a way to start.

I think you do have a point that a lot of the stuff mentioned in the article was mere fighting words. But McClellan did construct a paramilitary organization in this period and the New York state government was readied to make him lead its state militia, and though many Democrats were hardly enthused about Tilden, they were behind him. This excerpt is revealing:
The excerpt reveals that New York's Bourbon Democrats were in the tank for their man, and that McClellan was boasting and receiving letters boasting about his ability to raise an army. Given that virtually the entirety of Little Mac's service in the Civil War can be established as a testament to his ability not to follow through on his boasts and that letters and rumors does not an army make. I'd say color me deeply, deeply skeptical about both his ability to both A: Raise said army, and B: Lead said Army in Insurrection

And given that House Democrats did accede to an electoral commission despite Tilden's opposition doesn't seem particularly clear that Tilden was willing to lead them. Southern Democrats, were as a matter fact, apparently more willing then their northern counterparts to cut a deal with Republicans, the Presidency for the final nail in reconstruction's coffin. To quote's Michael F. Holt's By One Vote
In fact, however, southern Democrats' militancy in February marked a significant shift since December. Then, the issue before House Democrats was not whether to delay an already started count of electoral votes. Rather, it was whether House Democrats should prevent the constitutionally mandated meeting of the two houses altogether and confront Republicans in other ways. Then, as Garfield noted in his diary, and as both Democratic and Republican newspaper correspondents reported from Washington, southern Democrats were far more moderate and conciliatory than their northern colleagues. When New York's former Mayor Fernando Wood urged in a Democratic caucus that the House launch formal impeachment proceedings against Grant, for example, southern Democrats led in quashing the proposal. Similarly, when some midwestern Democrats spoke wildly of installing Tilden as president by armed force, southern Democratic congressmen firmly spurned any resort to violence. Unlike northern Democratic vaporers, they announced, they had personally experienced hard fighting and wanted no more of it.

More important, rumors circulated in Washington during December that a substantial number of southern Democratic congressmen were willing to cut a deal with Republicans who were close enough to Hayes to know his intentions regarding policy toward the South. They would oppose any motions in the House to block a joint meeting if those men could guarantee that Hayes would remove the remaining troops from South Carolina and Louisiana so that the Democratic administrations of Wade Hampton and Francis Nichols could govern unimpeded. On December 13, 1876, a Washington Democrat sent nearly identical warnings to Tilden and to Charles Dana, editor of the Democratic New York Sun. "There is danger of serious defection among southern democratic leaders. Certain of Hayes' friends are making proposals to certain southern democrats and they are entertained and may be accepted. There is a potential combination enlisted in this movement-Jay Gould, [Collis P.] Huntington, and Tom Scott-the Union Pacific, Central Pacific, Texas Pacific and Penna Railroad. There is a deep undercurrent unseen by the gentlemen managing your case here."49 Five days later R. B. Radford also warned Tilden from Washington that forty to fifty southern Democrats might cut a deal with Hayes. Hayes had "already assured them of his intention to admit them into his confidence," for Hayes's purpose was
to win over former Whigs in the South who "have recently been with us as a consequence of the war and republican outrage... The machinery has already to my certain knowledge been set in motion for that object. Hayes is a much wiser man than he is popularly regarded."

By One Vote: The Disputed Presidential Election of 1876 by Micheal F. Holt, pg 236-237
The article does get into as you say Tilden’s cautions, noted by his contemporaries. But if the crisis is not resolved by inauguration day, I do think there would be dual inaugurations. New York’s state government would be fully behind Tilden, and McClellan would lead its state militia along with paramilitaries across the nation. It would be a truly national affair in at least that way.

Granted, when I sketched this scenario myself after reading this (very fascinating) article, I also concluded the Democrats did not have the guts for a full-blown civil war, with my conclusion being that, especially with a much worse version of the Strike of 1877 happening at the same time, there’d be a dual resignation and a compromise candidate selected (perhaps David Davis). With a very chaotic 1877-1880 period following this and the 1880 election being a Grant vs. McClellan fight (with a stronger Greenback Party bolstered by the strikes).
Would there? Tilden's conduct through out the entirety of the crisis seemed dithering, indecisive, and inaccessible, hardly the sort of stuff necessary to lead a oppositional Government.
Randall was not the only Democrat incensed by this possibility. The proposal had been made on January 13, a Saturday. At the request of one of the House Democrats, the two committees then recessed until Monday. That Saturday afternoon, Hewitt sent the draft plan by courier to Tilden (now freed of the governorship) in New York City to ascertain his views. Later that night he took the train to New York, planning to meet with Tilden on Sunday morning. Hewitt and his large family lived with his father-in-law, Peter Cooper, in a large house at the southern end of Lexington Avenue, only a three-minute walk from Tilden's Gramercy Park town house. At their meeting, Tilden adamantly opposed the process for picking the associate justices. He too called it a "raffle." But he also seemed hesitant to accept even the idea of a bipartisan election commission rather than relying on the Democratic House alone to elect him. Tilden and his closest advisers at that time were also toying with the idea of demanding that another presidential election be held immediately. As it turned out, Hewitt could get no clear commitment from Tilden by the time he left for Washington that Sunday night. In a telegram to Hewitt on Monday, January 15, Tilden said only, "Procrastinate to give days for information and consultation. The six Judge proposition [is] inadmissible." 18

To a man, the Democratic majority on the House committee followed Tilden's wish. They made it plain at the joint meeting of the committees on January 15 that the "six Judge proposition" could never pass the House. For a while, the Senate committee threatened to present the plan to the Senate, no matter what the House committee did. Then a mutually acceptable compromise was reached, despite Tilden's lack of enthusiasm for the whole process. Had Tilden explicitly rejected the idea, nothing would have been done , but he failed to make his wishes clear. After the committees had completed their endeavors, Hewitt told one appalled Democrat that he had no idea whether Tilden agreed to the bill. 19

By One Vote: The Disputed Presidential Election of 1876 by Micheal F. Holt, pg 214-215
I'd it's borderline probable that without a electoral commission, Congressional Republicans would find some way to cut a deal with Southerners that would let the Republican Senate Pro-Temp (who was in the tank for Hayes) count the electoral votes during the Joint Session of Congress, in exchange for promises to drive the final nails in the nearly finished coffin of reconstruction's. Hayes, would be, one way or another, elected.

Nothing about Tilden's conduct in 1876 or his abortive attempt at the nomination in 1880 gives the indication of a man who has the Je ne sais quois to follow through with the threat of a dual inauguration. Nothing about the Southern Democrats conduct gives any indication that they'd be willing to risk disunion, again, for Tilden's sake as long as Federal troops left the South, and Little Mac's reputation for being all bark and no bite speaks for itself. I'd put it quite confidently that somewhere between the election and the inauguration someone would lose their nerve and the whole thing would fall to pieces.
 
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