WI Saarland offensive continued

French Soldier: Monsieur Capitaine, the S-mines are too frightening! And the Germans are even more scary! I scared its going to be a terrible 4 year trench war again. Lets retreat back to our invincible Maginot Line where we can drink wine and talk about the good life.

France's doctrine was strongly defensive. Long term offensives are not possible with that kind of thinking.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
French Soldier: Monsieur, the S-mines are too frightening! And the Germans are even more scary!
Lets retreat back to France where we can hide in our invincible Maginot Line and drink wine and talk about the good life.
France's doctrine was strongly defensive. Long term offensives are not possible with that kind of thinking.

Given the casualties suffered only 20-25 years earlier that does explain that kind of thinking.
 
French Soldier: Monsieur Capitaine, the S-mines are too frightening! And the Germans are even more scary! I scared its going to be a terrible 4 year trench war again. Lets retreat back to our invincible Maginot Line where we can drink wine and talk about the good life.

France's doctrine was strongly defensive. Long term offensives are not possible with that kind of thinking.

I disagree with that completely

the maginot line was FINISHED before Germany started re-arming

the maginot line was effectively copied by all the major European land powers, including the Germans and Russians who are regarded as the most forward military thinkers of the period in the construction of the west wall and the stalin line

the Germans were still building the west wall in 1940!

France had an enormous tank park with competitive modern designs with hard hitting guns grouped into armored brigades, again a similar doctrine to the British and Russians by that point, only the Germans had been successfully creating working armored corps, and only the Germans had real combat experience in how to supply mobile divisions on the move in combat without everything going to hell

France had expected (rightly) that the Germans could not break the maginot line, and that they would attack through the low countries and the cream of their army including 70 percent of it's mobile striking power was dedicated to meet them head on. There was no window for a significant campaign against the Saar and ultimately the west wall, in between the French completion of general mobilization (third week in September) and the return of the victorious German airforce and army from Poland. The German Army was already as big as the French army and following the end of Winter the German army was considerably larger, and the German airforce was twice as big as the French Air Force; what exactly where they supposed to do? Repeat the battle of the frontiers?
 
French Soldier: Monsieur Capitaine, the S-mines are too frightening! And the Germans are even more scary! I scared its going to be a terrible 4 year trench war again. Lets retreat back to our invincible Maginot Line where we can drink wine and talk about the good life.

France's doctrine was strongly defensive. Long term offensives are not possible with that kind of thinking.
Jeez, that's not even remotely stereotypical at all! You forgot to say they were busy eating cheese and ironing their white flags.
 

marathag

Banned
There was no window for a significant campaign against the Saar and ultimately the west wall, in between the French completion of general mobilization (third week in September) and the return of the victorious German airforce and army from Poland.
Back to the timidity. Hardly an Army ever fielded could redeploy from one front after weeks of combat, and then jump right back into combat without time to refit.
It took the Germans 3 months after the Russians collapsed in December 1917 to do anything in the West.

Meanwhile, the French had the 'staggering' </s> casualties of 2000 men and four tanks lost for the Saar campaign.
 
France had expected (rightly) that the Germans could not break the maginot line, and that they would attack through the low countries and the cream of their army including 70 percent of it's mobile striking power was dedicated to meet them head on. There was no window for a significant campaign against the Saar and ultimately the west wall, in between the French completion of general mobilization (third week in September) and the return of the victorious German airforce and army from Poland. The German Army was already as big as the French army and following the end of Winter the German army was considerably larger, and the German airforce was twice as big as the French Air Force; what exactly where they supposed to do? Repeat the battle of the frontiers?
Of course France (and Poland) should have started quiet mobilization when they learned that Germans were mobilizing, and call general mobilization after signing Ribbentrop-Molotov or the called off attack on Poland on August 26th. This way both countries would be fully mobilized and concentrated on September 1.
 
As I mentioned, I'm aware that it was controversial and that some see it as a "technical agreement". If the French thought that a document titled "Accord militaire défensif franco-belge pour le cas d'une agression allemande non-provoquée" actually meant what the title says, I guess we should be sympathetic with them.
Calling this agreement “Accord militaire défensif pour le cas d’une aggression alllemande non-provoquée” certainly sounds better towards internal and international opinion than “Accord de coopération militaire pour l’organisation pratique de l’occupation de la Ruhr”, which this was mostly about (just count the number of words related to that topic in the text of the agreement vs. the rest). A title should be illuminating, but it can also obfuscate; the content of the agreement is what matters.

And if you need another argument that Belgium was not a French ally, please consider again the Locarno treaty whereby France, Germany and Belgium agreed to guarantee each other’s borders and to help the attacked party in case of aggression by one of the other parties. It was formally an equidistant treaty, and that one was properly ratified and promulgated.

The failure of the French diplomacy to understand what was really going on in Belgium during the interwar years was abysmal. And you just needed to listen carefully, there was no duplicity on the Belgian part, witness the 1931 speech whose link I copied. It’s not like nobody in France would know that an alliance treaty needs to be ratified by Parliament and signed by the Head of State... The French thought that Belgium ought to be a French ally, and so was a French ally. It is also true that the quality of French diplomatic personnel in a Belgium at the time left much to be desired, especially for a relationship that was so critical to French security policy.

Think of the position of Belgium towards France during the interwar years as Sweden vs. the US during the Cold War: we like you, we share many common interests and values, we face a common threat, we want to prepare to fight that threat together if it materializes, but we don’t want to have our hands tied because we also know you may pursue interests that are far from ours and don’t want to suffer the consequences if we can avoid it.

Finally, let me be clear that I consider that the Belgian foreign policy during the interwar years had its fair share of confusion and naivety, and it was certainly recognized as such by Belgian decision-makers after the facts. But we still need to be accurate when we describe it.
 
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If Belgium had been consistently neutral or hostile then yes France would have built fortifications as part of their national defense strategy, however they would not have been maginot style fortifications, they would have been surface style block houses or bunkers like the Seigfried line instead of the recessed maginot ouvrages. However one does not build boarder fortifications up against the territory of an ally, so it was never an option
Except Belgium was not a French ally and requested several times the extension of the line along its border even in the early 1930’s
 
Back to the timidity. Hardly an Army ever fielded could redeploy from one front after weeks of combat, and then jump right back into combat without time to refit.
It took the Germans 3 months after the Russians collapsed in December 1917 to do anything in the West.

Meanwhile, the French had the 'staggering' </s> casualties of 2000 men and four tanks lost for the Saar campaign.

Timidity? France tried the attack over the frontier into heavily defended fortifications thing before, 1914 it failed, and it would have failed in 1939 even if they attacked with 50 divisions in the third week of September. By the second week in October the Germans would actually outnumber the French on the line
 
Of course France (and Poland) should have started quiet mobilization when they learned that Germans were mobilizing, and call general mobilization after signing Ribbentrop-Molotov or the called off attack on Poland on August 26th. This way both countries would be fully mobilized and concentrated on September 1.

The only way France could conduct a major offensive in the Saar that year would be if they mobilized in June. Their entire war plan including stock piling of mobile munitions and artillery was based on a dash into the low countries. It would take time to work out that attack to be something big
 

marathag

Banned
Timidity? France tried the attack over the frontier into heavily defended fortifications thing before, 1914 it failed, and it would have failed in 1939 even if they attacked with 50 divisions in the third week of September. By the second week in October the Germans would actually outnumber the French on the line
In 1939, the areas slated to be invaded did not include areas behind the unfinished and barely manned and equipped West Wall
 
In 1939, the areas slated to be invaded did not include areas behind the unfinished and barely manned and equipped West Wall

There where two field armies in Army Group C, plus rapidly assembling German reservists where being sent there even faster than the French were. So barely manned, no

Equipped is debatable, the French and all the allies where mislead by German propaganda into thinking the west wall was much stronger than it was; it did however have thousands of block houses already built by this point and was shielded by well sited anti tank traps including water obstacles and dragons teeth

But the point that remains is that the French where not ready for an offensive across the frontier, they where ready to dash into Belgium with their mobile forces, they assumed largely that the frontier would be a no go area for both sides due to heavy fortification which was true, so by the time they stage for an offensive in that area with 50 divisions Germany is finished with Poland and outnumbers the French on the line and winter weather will be coming soon
 
According to the World At War episode "France Falls" The French didn't originally want to finish the Maginot Line because they thought that would make the Belgians think they were abandoning them.

"Given the failings of the French army, did the high command actually err by not pursuing a protective barrier along the entire frontier? In other words, would France have been better off had the Maginot Line extended north to the English Channel? This question is rarely asked by historians given the fiscal, engineering, and diplomatic obstacles to this approach. Above all, as Gamelin and others argued, it would have been enormously expensive-—double or triple the costs of the extant Maginot Line costs-—due primarily to the high water table of the northern frontier. France could have afforded it, but only at the sacrifice of other defense and government programs. Although Germany's invasion and rapid victory focuses history on that threat, French strategists in the intrawar period faced an array of challenges that encouraged heavy expenditures in other areas, especially the navy. Given the immense time required for constructing such a barrier, a decision would have been necessary before the Hitler threat crystallized in the mid-1930s. Ultimately, it is unknowable if a continuous Maginot Line would have succeeded better at holding off the Germans. A barrier, even one that would have been the most impressive in history, probably alone could not be expected to hold off an imaginative and determined foe such as the Germans. The successful local deterrence and defense of the Maginot Line in Lorraine has to be weighed against the existence of appealing alternative approaches into France. One should not necessarily expect the same level of effectiveness for a strategic defense across the entire eastern frontier, especially since the existence of such an obstacle would have served to foster an even more defensive mindset among the French public and politicians. Thus the high command appears correct to have derided the creation of a "Great Wall of France.'"

Bren L. Sterling, Do Good Fences Make Good Neigihbors? What History Teaches Us about Strategic Barriers and International Security (Washington, DC: Georgetown University Press, 2009), pp. 245-6 https://books.google.com/books?id=XHOTNUZ-9EAC&pg=PA245 https://books.google.com/books?id=XHOTNUZ-9EAC&pg=PA246
 

marathag

Banned
the French and all the allies where mislead by German propaganda into thinking the west wall was much stronger than it was
Believing the Enemy's Propaganda a face value is another sign of failure.

Always worrying what they enemy can do to you, and not what you can do to the enemy, is defeatism
 
Thinking about it, if I were Belgium, a complete line might be appealing as it's gonna be less obvious that you need to rampage through my country to get to your juicy prize.
The successful local deterrence and defense of the Maginot Line in Lorraine has to be weighed against the existence of appealing alternative approaches into France
Those fortifications lasted after the armistice. While they're not a war winner on their own, it's silly to dismiss them completely like that
 
Back to the timidity. Hardly an Army ever fielded could redeploy from one front after weeks of combat, and then jump right back into combat without time to refit.
It took the Germans 3 months after the Russians collapsed in December 1917 to do anything in the West.

Meanwhile, the French had the 'staggering' </s> casualties of 2000 men and four tanks lost for the Saar campaign.

Do you believe the Germans had no forces in the West during September 1940?
 
On the subject of Maginot, I will simply say that the fortifications of the Maginot line formally extended from Corsica to the Channel, and included fortifications on the Italian, Swiss, Belgian, Luxembourgish and German borders.
While it is true that the sectors at the border with Italy and Germany were the most heavily fortified of them all, "extending Maginot to the Channel" is a bit of a misconception.
 
Calling this agreement “Accord militaire défensif pour le cas d’une aggression alllemande non-provoquée” certainly sounds better towards internal and international opinion than “Accord de coopération militaire pour l’organisation pratique de l’occupation de la Ruhr”, which this was mostly about (just count the number of words related to that topic in the text of the agreement vs. the rest). A title should be illuminating, but it can also obfuscate; the content of the agreement is what matters.

The occupation of the Ruhr ended in 1925. It took until 1936, with the King's "solely and exclusively Belgian" foreign policy statement, for the Accord to be considered as abrogated by the Belgians. So maybe there was something more to it than the technical details of the occupation of the Ruhr.

And if you need another argument that Belgium was not a French ally, please consider again the Locarno treaty whereby France, Germany and Belgium agreed to guarantee each other’s borders and to help the attacked party in case of aggression by one of the other parties. It was formally an equidistant treaty, and that one was properly ratified and promulgated.

A pretty inaccurate description of the treaty. First, you omit to mention that Britain and Italy were signatories too, as guarantors; it was the post-WWI update of the multilateral guarantee of Belgium.
Second, and most importantly, it was not equidistant, not even formally. Look up articles 2 and 3. They provide guarantees in the relations between "Germany and Belgium, and Germany and France". For some reason, the signatories did not think that commitments to peace and guarantees were needed between Belgium and France.

there was no duplicity on the Belgian part,

So the military staff enters an agreement for mutual defense in case of unprovoked attack by a third party, the government signs it, then they try to keep its contents secret, don't present it to the Parliament, or to the King, for their necessary approval. However, they behave as if it's in force well beyond the end of the joint military effort you claim it was about, but silently - until they decide they no longer want it.
That's what "no duplicity" means to you?
 
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Believing the Enemy's Propaganda a face value is another sign of failure.

Always worrying what they enemy can do to you, and not what you can do to the enemy, is defeatism

They didn't have accurate human intel on the west wall. Germany had hollowed out France's population the Previous war and their effective field army once mobilization of all reserves was complete outnumbered France something on the order of 1.6 to 1, and Britian's pitiful contribution of 10 understrength raw divisions, of which only 1 was armored (which took 6 months to even build to that strength) did nothing to offset the 60 hostile Italian and 16 potentially hostile spanish divisions on Frances boarders which they felt not unjustifiably that they needed to defend as well

The math and political landscape was so utterly against France it's not even funny, and there is zero chance a full throated offensive with 50 french divisions in late september 1939 would have went anywhere meaningful
 
To Michele:

My apologies for taking the time to respond, but real life took over, and I had on top some issues with my computer. I find these exchanges stimulating, as it can certainly help refine the understanding of particular points of history, and I hope we can keep this civil.

The fundamental point is that I think we don't agree about the definition of "alliance". In my definition of the word, an alliance implies a degree of automaticity whereby you are bound to intervene militarily to support the other party under certain circumstances - think NATO Article 5. This was not the case with the 1920 French-Belgian agreement, as this was made absolutely clear in the exchange of notes between the French and the Belgian governments at the time: "Il va de soi que la souveraineté des deux Etats demeure intacte quant aux charges militaires qu'ils imposeront à leurs pays respectifs et quant à l'appréciation, dans chaque cas, de la réalisation de l'eventualité en vue de laquelle le présent accord est conclu." Free translation: "It goes without saying that the sovereignty of each State remains intact with regards to the military charges that they will impose upon their respective countries, and with respect to the appreciation, in each case, of the realization of the eventuality (i.e. an unprovoked German aggression) for which this agreement has been concluded."

You seem to have a more extensive interpretation of alliance, which is fine, and I have a more legal one. I acknowledge the agreement recognized a closeness between France and Belgium, but I would personally not qualify it as an alliance.

As for your argument that the fact that the agreement was registered with the League of Nations, the registration obligation covered "treaties and other international agreements". So, this does not prove that it was a treaty nor an alliance. In fact, there were many treaties registered with the LoN which had absolutely no military content.

The occupation of the Ruhr ended in 1925. It took until 1936, with the King's "solely and exclusively Belgian" foreign policy statement, for the Accord to be considered as abrogated by the Belgians. So maybe there was something more to it than the technical details of the occupation of the Ruhr.

The nature of the 1920 agreement evolved over time, especially after the signing of the Locarno treaty in 1925. When the occupation of the Rhur ended, there was indeed a very public debate in Belgium with respect to the fate of the Agreement. There were essentially three schools of thought:
1) Since the occupation of Germany had ended and the international security position was covered by the Locarno treaty, a first school of thought was that the 1920 Agreement had de facto ceased to produce its effects, and thus lapsed.
2) Another opinion was that the 1920 agreement was in contradiction with, if not the terms, at least the spirit, of Locarno, and that it would be more appropriate to denounce it. Such was, for instance, the opinion defended at times by Emile Vandervelde, the leader of the Labor Party who was Minister of Foreign Affairs in various cabinets during the interwar period.
3) Finally, there was the opinion that the couple of clauses that didn't relate to the occupation of the Rhur (and which foresaw essentially a coordination of defense planning) provided an appropriate military content to the obligation made to France and Belgium to support each other in case of unprovoked German aggression as as one of the eventualities covered by the Locarno treaty. This is the interpretation that ultimately prevailed - see the 1931 speech by Paul Hymans in front of Parliament to which I provided the link previously. The French government agreed to that interpretation. So, the nature of the 1920 agreement evolved due to international circumstances and was made to fit within the Locarno framework.

After the remilitarization of the Rhineland in 1936, the Belgian diplomacy sought at first to salvage what it could from the Locarno framework. When it realized, quite fast, that the Locarno system had collapsed and could not be revived, it became inevitable that the Belgian government would also denounce the 1920 agreement, which it considered as intimately linked to that system.

You have to realize that level of trust into the French had been horribly damaged in Belgium after the lack of reaction to the remilitarization of the Rhineland. Initially, the Belgian Prime Minister Van Zeeland had reacted very forcefully and proposed a joint military intervention to the French. When confronted with the inaction of the French government, the Belgian Government was very quickly forced to backpedal vigorously lest it would be completely naked and isolated as a warmonger.


A pretty inaccurate description of the treaty. First, you omit to mention that Britain and Italy were signatories too, as guarantors; it was the post-WWI update of the multilateral guarantee of Belgium.

Yes, Britain and Italy were signatories as well, but I don't see how this changes the crux of the argument. I did not mention them as this was not really relevant.

Second, and most importantly, it was not equidistant, not even formally. Look up articles 2 and 3. They provide guarantees in the relations between "Germany and Belgium, and Germany and France". For some reason, the signatories did not think that commitments to peace and guarantees were needed between Belgium and France.

This is a fair point. When I referred to equidistance, I meant that Belgium was supposed to support militarily either France of Germany if it were subject to an unprovoked aggression by the other country. Belgium was thus a guarantor of the French-German border, which in a way was quite extraordinary if you think about it. So, to clarify my point, I find it difficult to qualify Belgium as a French ally under the Locarno system if Belgium was bound to go to war with France if it attacked Germany...

So the military staff enters an agreement for mutual defense in case of unprovoked attack by a third party, the government signs it, then they try to keep its contents secret, don't present it to the Parliament, or to the King, for their necessary approval. However, they behave as if it's in force well beyond the end of the joint military effort you claim it was about, but silently - until they decide they no longer want it.
That's what "no duplicity" means to you?

When I wrote there was no "duplicity", I meant that the interpretation of the 1920 agreement by the Belgian government was perfectly transparent to the French, who at least feigned to agree with it. That many people in Paris wanted to believe that the agreement meant more than it did in the view of the Belgians, is probably also true... As for the ultimate fate of the agreement, please see my comments above.
 
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