WI: Russia "in" the American War For Independence?

CandyDragon

I was recently reading a biography of Catherine the Great, and it mentioned, off hand, that George III, in 1775, requested twenty thousand Russian troops for use in quelling discontent in the Americas. He offered to pay for these troops, and to otherwise maintain them, but in the end, Catherine refused, seeing issues closer to home that would need the soldiers.

What if she did decide to aid Britain, and agree to send the troops? Depending on their actions, and probably their effectiveness too, I can see this tainting US-Russian relations (Should the Russians not prove enough to stop the success of the revolt) in the future, and likely butterfly the traditionally relatively positive relations between czarist Russia and the US.

However, does anybody know more about this offer, and its likelihood? Could these troops help suppress the Americans?
 

Flocculencio

Donor
I don't know how plausible this suggestion was (I suspect not very) but if it came to that, if anything I think this might really swing a lot more English domestic opinion against the Crown. As it was, large portions of British society weren't entirely unsympathetic to the Americans. The idea that the Crown could use foreign troops against free born Englishmen (even if they were colonials) would rub a lot of people the wrong way.
 

CandyDragon

Flocculencio said:
I don't know how plausible this suggestion was (I suspect not very) but if it came to that, if anything I think this might really swing a lot more English domestic opinion against the Crown. As it was, large portions of British society weren't entirely unsympathetic to the Americans. The idea that the Crown could use foreign troops against free born Englishmen (even if they were colonials) would rub a lot of people the wrong way.
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Well, there was the OTL example of the Hessians, which the Americans, IIRC, had a particular bee in their bonnet against, and were a bit of a propaganda boost for the Americans.
 

Flocculencio

Donor
CandyDragon said:
Well, there was the OTL example of the Hessians, which the Americans, IIRC, had a particular bee in their bonnet against, and were a bit of a propaganda boost for the Americans.
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Thats what I was thinking of but reactions against Russian involvement would be even worse. The Hessians, at least, were mercenaries in the service of the Crown but in this case, the Crown would be using the troops of another monarch against its own subjects.

"Are we, gentlemen, to hear the tramp of half-civilised Oriental hordes on the streets of Philadeplhia and New York? All right-thinking men of sense and goodwill in England and all her Dominions should remember that if Cossacks and Boyars are unleashed in Lexington there will be nothing to stop the Tyrant of Hannover from their use in Liverpool or London."- Thomas Jefferson in An Open Letter on the Cause of Liberty
 

MerryPrankster

Flocculencio said:
Thats what I was thinking of but reactions against Russian involvement would be even worse. The Hessians, at least, were mercenaries in the service of the Crown but in this case, the Crown would be using the troops of another monarch against its own subjects.

"Are we, gentlemen, to hear the tramp of half-civilised Oriental hordes on the streets of Philadeplhia and New York? All right-thinking men of sense and goodwill in England and all her Dominions should remember that if Cossacks and Boyars are unleashed in Lexington there will be nothing to stop the Tyrant of Hannover from their use in Liverpool or London."- Thomas Jefferson in An Open Letter on the Cause of Liberty
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Good point. I especially like the faux Jefferson there and how the fact these soldiers would be Russians--a culture far less Western than, say, Germany--would piss people off even more.
 

MerryPrankster

Here's something Catherine the Great did later in OTL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_League_of_Armed_Neutrality

If she actually sent the troops to the Colonies--and if these troops got into some serious scrapes--Russia would be a British ally and therefore not be a neutral nation subject to harassment.

Worst-case scenario, could Russian assisting British ships in neutral-pestering in the Baltic trigger some kind of northern war with Sweden and Denmark?
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
MerryPrankster said:
Here's something Catherine the Great did later in OTL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_League_of_Armed_Neutrality

If she actually sent the troops to the Colonies--and if these troops got into some serious scrapes--Russia would be a British ally and therefore not be a neutral nation subject to harassment.

Worst-case scenario, could Russian assisting British ships in neutral-pestering in the Baltic trigger some kind of northern war with Sweden and Denmark?
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Sweden and Denmark would be surrounded from both sides if hey got into a fight with Britain and Russia.
 

CandyDragon

MarshalBraginsky said:
Sweden and Denmark would be surrounded from both sides if hey got into a fight with Britain and Russia.
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Not to mention the fact that should there be no distractions for Russia, that could have horrific repercussions for the Swedes, who would be facing both nations, and further tying the two together.
 

MerryPrankster

MarshalBraginsky said:
Sweden and Denmark would be surrounded from both sides if hey got into a fight with Britain and Russia.
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Yes, but in Denmark's case they might be able to get support from Prussia, which was part of the League of Armed Neutrality as well.

Prussia's navy couldn't do much to Britain, but Prussia's army would be dangerous to Russia. And it wasn't that long ago that Prussia barely avoided being destroyed by Russia bowing out of the war. The Czar who did that was overthrown and killed by Catherine the Great. There might be a grudge here.
 

CandyDragon

MerryPrankster said:
Yes, but in Denmark's case they might be able to get support from Prussia, which was part of the League of Armed Neutrality as well.

Prussia's navy couldn't do much to Britain, but Prussia's army would be dangerous to Russia. And it wasn't that long ago that Prussia barely avoided being destroyed by Russia bowing out of the war. The Czar who did that was overthrown and killed by Catherine the Great. There might be a grudge here.
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I wonder how Austria might handle that, given the growing closeness between the two nations at the time. (Given, it would be more pronounced later, but still)
 

MerryPrankster

Also, the Ottomans were part of the League of Armed Neutrality as well in OTL. Again, not a threat to Britain (with the exception of the Barbary Pirates preying on merchants), but they could make trouble for Russia as well.

Wow, a potential Caucasian Theater, Baltic Theater, and Eastern European Theater for the American Revolution.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
MerryPrankster said:
Yes, but in Denmark's case they might be able to get support from Prussia, which was part of the League of Armed Neutrality as well.

Prussia's navy couldn't do much to Britain, but Prussia's army would be dangerous to Russia. And it wasn't that long ago that Prussia barely avoided being destroyed by Russia bowing out of the war. The Czar who did that was overthrown and killed by Catherine the Great. There might be a grudge here.
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Any other nations willing to help the British other than the Russians?
 

MerryPrankster

CandyDragon said:
Maybe Austria might want to get back at Prussia in this hypothetical expanded ARW for the seizure of Silesia?
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That's a good point, although after two losses (including one featuring the diplomatic realignment of all the powers involved in the first one), one wonders if they'd be up for a third go. IIRC after failing for the second time, Maria Theresa renounced all claims on Silesia.

Of course, if Prussia is distracted by Russia, it might be less risky to claim that renouncement was made under duress...
 

MerryPrankster

According to some earlier discussion on the board, during this time period, the British were very arrogant and had alienated most of the other European states.

Is this accurate? If so, this might limit Britain's allies in any hypothetical expanded war and also limit the willingness of TTL's allies to continue.

(Say the Russians' 20,000 soldiers don't accomplish much and the British demand more, leading to the Russians pulling out entirely.)
 
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