WI: Richard II has a child with Anne of Bohemia

Two potential discussion points:

1) He has a son (let us say the son is named Edward, born in 1390)
2) He has a daughter (named Elizabeth, born in 1390)

What are the butterflies that would result from this? Who would the children likely marry? What happens to them after their father is deposed?
 
A son seems guaranteed to wed Isabella de Valois to secure an ATL Truce of Leulinghem. He probably is made king as a child after his father is deposed, a la Edward II and Edward III under Mortimer.

A daughter is probably intended for one of the younger sons of Charles VI, given Richard's obsession with France, though the lords of the day would be insanely opposed to such a match. There is no way they would accept a Valois king after more than a half-century of war. Such an intended match would possibly see Richard deposed early in ATL. I have to imagine the girl is wedded to Monmouth to keep the crown in English hands and unite her claim with the senior male line claim.
 
This, as long as there is any hope, that there will be a duke of Cornwall (Prince of Wales) in the future, Elisabeth will be intended for a French match. However once it becomes clear, that this will not happen, a marriage will be arranged with the next most senior Plantagenet (or his heir) in the line of succession. I can see other houses, like the Mortimers, being skipped over.
 
Two potential discussion points:

1) He has a son (let us say the son is named Edward, born in 1390)
2) He has a daughter (named Elizabeth, born in 1390)

What are the butterflies that would result from this? Who would the children likely marry? What happens to them after their father is deposed?
If it's the son (Edward), then he'll be most senior male Plantagenet in the line of succession without a doubt. Bolingbroke wouldn't dare stake his claim onto the English Throne if a grandson of the Black Prince lives.

If it's the daughter (Elizabeth), Richard II would likely marry her to any another descendent of Edward III expect for the House of Lancaster as a last ditch effort. (Richard wasn't too kindly to Bolingbroke but he was to his eldest child and son Henry of Monmouth.)
 
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If it's the son (Edward), then he'll be most senior male Plantagenet in the line of succession without a doubt. Bolingbroke wouldn't dare risk his bet on the English Throne if a grandson of the Black Prince lives.

If it's the daughter (Elizabeth), Richard II would likely marry her to any another descendent of Edward III expect for the House of Lancaster as a last ditch effort. (Richard wasn't too kindly to Bolingbroke but he was to his eldest child and son Henry of Monmouth.)
I wonder if Bolingbroke could try anyway, just claim that the child is illegitimate or something, though that'd likely end in his own disaster...
 
Two potential discussion points:

1) He has a son (let us say the son is named Edward, born in 1390)
2) He has a daughter (named Elizabeth, born in 1390)

What are the butterflies that would result from this? Who would the children likely marry? What happens to them after their father is deposed?
pretty unlikely seeing Richard deposed here and I doubt who a girl would be an Elizabeth as Anne, Joan and Philippa are far likelier names.

A son seems guaranteed to wed Isabella de Valois to secure an ATL Truce of Leulinghem. He probably is made king as a child after his father is deposed, a la Edward II and Edward III under Mortimer.

A daughter is probably intended for one of the younger sons of Charles VI, given Richard's obsession with France, though the lords of the day would be insanely opposed to such a match. There is no way they would accept a Valois king after more than a half-century of war. Such an intended match would possibly see Richard deposed early in ATL. I have to imagine the girl is wedded to Monmouth to keep the crown in English hands and unite her claim with the senior male line claim.
The boy would be married to Isabella, but Richard‘s heiress presumptive would marry Mortimer or Norwick not a French Prince
 
pretty unlikely seeing Richard deposed here and I doubt who a girl would be an Elizabeth as Anne, Joan and Philippa are far likelier names.


The boy would be married to Isabella, but Richard‘s heiress presumptive would marry Mortimer or Norwick not a French Prince
Why wouldn't Richard be deposed if he has a son ? The problems that led to his overthrow still exist

Though why wouldn't his hypothetical daughter be able to marry a lower down French prince ?
 
Why wouldn't Richard be deposed if he has a son ? The problems that led to his overthrow still exist
Maybe, but Bolingbroke would NOT have a valid claim to the English crown who would go to either Richard’s son or son-in-law
Though why wouldn't his hypothetical daughter be able to marry a lower down French prince ?
Because Richard was NOT crazy and sign his lands over to a French Prince, when he had perfectly nice English candidates with Plantagenet royal blood available for his heiress, would be a folly.
 
pretty unlikely seeing Richard deposed here and I doubt who a girl would be an Elizabeth as Anne, Joan and Philippa are far likelier names.
I'd argue just the opposite. We know from Knighton's chronicle that the only reason Richard was not deposed by the Lords Appellant in the meeting at the Tower on December 27, 1387, was because the lords could not agree on to whom the crown should pass after Richard was removed. The presence of a clear heir removes this problem entirely. The lords can now rather straightforwardly remove Richard and set up a regency for his son or daughter, as Mortimer did in 1327.


The boy would be married to Isabella, but Richard‘s heiress presumptive would marry Mortimer or Norwick not a French Prince
Richard had nearly as much contempt for Mortimer as he did Lancaster, so there is no chance he would arrange a marriage here. Norwich would be far too old, and the birth of a daughter would demonstrate that Anne of Bohemia was capable of bearing children and thus there'd be no one would see the girl as an heiress from the get-go -- they would expect a future child to be a boy.

I do think Richard would want a French match for his daughter. This may be acceptable to the political community in England for a time since, again, they would likely expect a son to be born in the future. But it seems to me that a revolt is guaranteed if and when it became clear that Richard was not having any more children.


Because Richard was NOT crazy and sign his lands over to a French Prince
Richard was not crazy, but he was politically inept. He was willing to divorce all of Aquitaine from the English crown when Charles VI suggested it -- wedding his daughter to one of Charles's younger sons seems like exactly the sort of decision he would make, either oblivious to how unpopular it would be at home or simply not caring they his lords would disapprove.
 
Maybe, but Bolingbroke would NOT have a valid claim to the English crown who would go to either Richard’s son or son-in-law
Best he could do is end up Regent or head of a Regency Council.
Assuming of course his invasion was to depose Richard in the first place and not just force him to allow Henry's inheritance.
Because Richard was NOT crazy and sign his lands over to a French Prince, when he had perfectly nice English candidates with Plantagenet royal blood available for his heiress, would be a folly.
Indeed.
 
I'd argue just the opposite. We know from Knighton's chronicle that the only reason Richard was not deposed by the Lords Appellant in the meeting at the Tower on December 27, 1387, was because the lords could not agree on to whom the crown should pass after Richard was removed. The presence of a clear heir removes this problem entirely. The lords can now rather straightforwardly remove Richard and set up a regency for his son or daughter, as Mortimer did in 1327.
Maybe, that would still be totally different from the OTL events
Richard had nearly as much contempt for Mortimer as he did Lancaster, so there is no chance he would arrange a marriage here. Norwich would be far too old, and the birth of a daughter would demonstrate that Anne of Bohemia was capable of bearing children and thus there'd be no one would see the girl as an heiress from the get-go -- they would expect a future child to be a boy.
I think who Richard’s true relationship with Mortimer (the father) was a mystery but he had married Richard’s half-niece so I would not exclude a match between the Mortimer heir and the English princes. In any case is likely who Richard would favor Norwick over pyoung Mortimer and the age difference would not be a problem, considering who Richard’s daughter would be some months older than Isabella’s sister Jeanne (who was proposed by Richard as bride for Norwick in OTL) so I can see the wedding being proposed and going ahead.
I do think Richard would want a French match for his daughter. This may be acceptable to the political community in England for a time since, again, they would likely expect a son to be born in the future. But it seems to me that a revolt is guaranteed if and when it became clear that Richard was not having any more children.

Richard was not crazy, but he was politically inept. He was willing to divorce all of Aquitaine from the English crown when Charles VI suggested it -- wedding his daughter to one of Charles's younger sons seems like exactly the sort of decision he would make, either oblivious to how unpopular it would be at home or simply not caring they his lords would disapprove.
No reason for going for this, not when Richard can marry Isabella as OTL and choose an English husband for his daughter
 
Maybe, that would still be totally different from the OTL events
Well, yes, it would have to be. I don't know that Bolingbroke has the support to usurp the throne for himself if Richard has a clear heir -- at least if Richard has a boy. Maybe if it's a girl then he'll still take the crown himself, and wed Monmouth to Isabella to tie up loose ends.


I think who Richard’s true relationship with Mortimer (the father) was a mystery but he had married Richard’s half-niece so I would not exclude a match between the Mortimer heir and the English princes. In any case is likely who Richard would favor Norwick over pyoung Mortimer and the age difference would not be a problem, considering who Richard’s daughter would be some months older than Isabella’s sister Jeanne (who was proposed by Richard as bride for Norwick in OTL) so I can see the wedding being proposed and going ahead.
Richard was rather hostile toward the Mortimers through the reign. Adam of Usk writes that the 4th earl of March left the 1398 parliament to return to Ireland, fearing that he would be prosecuted as part of Richard's tyranny with the king's other enemies, and that Holland -- i.e., March's brother-in-law -- hated March and plotted to murder him to take his lands.


No reason for going for this, not when Richard can marry Isabella as OTL and choose an English husband for his daughter
There is reason for this. Firstly, Richard's obsession with the French is well-documented -- even a subject of derision and mocking from figures in his own day. For this alone I suspect Richard would seek a French match.

But more importantly, Richard held himself and the other crowned heads to be figures chosen by God. He refused to take wives who were not the daughters of kings -- quite literally, in looking for a second wife, he refused to consider any match that was not a princess. This was a man totally convinced of his own regality. He would surely consider a match for his child with anyone but the son or daughter of a king as unacceptable or even insulting.
 
Well, yes, it would have to be. I don't know that Bolingbroke has the support to usurp the throne for himself if Richard has a clear heir -- at least if Richard has a boy. Maybe if it's a girl then he'll still take the crown himself, and wed Monmouth to Isabella to tie up loose ends.
As Richard’s daughter would be her father’s indisputable heiress until she had a (half-)brother the best who Bolingbroke can do is making his son the King Consort of the young Queen and himself as regent. But that would still presume a scenario like OTL who was not likely
There is reason for this. Firstly, Richard's obsession with the French is well-documented -- even a subject of derision and mocking from figures in his own day. For this alone I suspect Richard would seek a French match.

But more importantly, Richard held himself and the other crowned heads to be figures chosen by God. He refused to take wives who were not the daughters of kings -- quite literally, in looking for a second wife, he refused to consider any match that was not a princess. This was a man totally convinced of his own regality. He would surely consider a match for his child with anyone but the son or daughter of a king as unacceptable or even insulting.
Again, he reputed at least Norwick worth of a royal princess and the man was likely his chosen heir in OTL so I can see Richard’s interest in such match who would secure his daughter’s inheritance and keep a Plantagenet male line on the English throne
 
I'd argue just the opposite. We know from Knighton's chronicle that the only reason Richard was not deposed by the Lords Appellant in the meeting at the Tower on December 27, 1387, was because the lords could not agree on to whom the crown should pass after Richard was removed. The presence of a clear heir removes this problem entirely. The lords can now rather straightforwardly remove Richard and set up a regency for his son or daughter, as Mortimer did in 1327.



Richard had nearly as much contempt for Mortimer as he did Lancaster, so there is no chance he would arrange a marriage here. Norwich would be far too old, and the birth of a daughter would demonstrate that Anne of Bohemia was capable of bearing children and thus there'd be no one would see the girl as an heiress from the get-go -- they would expect a future child to be a boy.

I do think Richard would want a French match for his daughter. This may be acceptable to the political community in England for a time since, again, they would likely expect a son to be born in the future. But it seems to me that a revolt is guaranteed if and when it became clear that Richard was not having any more children.



Richard was not crazy, but he was politically inept. He was willing to divorce all of Aquitaine from the English crown when Charles VI suggested it -- wedding his daughter to one of Charles's younger sons seems like exactly the sort of decision he would make, either oblivious to how unpopular it would be at home or simply not caring they his lords would disapprove.
Richard held no contempt for John of Gaunt. As a matter of fact, they were quite close. Any statements to the contrary are simply not true.
 
As Richard’s daughter would be her father’s indisputable heiress until she had a (half-)brother the best who Bolingbroke can do is making his son the King Consort of the young Queen and himself as regent. But that would still presume a scenario like OTL who was not likely
"Indisputable" is a stretch. There's no precedent for a queen, though clearly she'd be much more difficult to set aside than Mortimer, it's not unthinkable that she'd be passed over.

What do you mean "a scenario like OTL?" Are you referring to Bolingbroke's exile and return specifically or Richard being deposed
generally?


Again, he reputed at least Norwick worth of a royal princess and the man was likely his chosen heir in OTL so I can see Richard’s interest in such match who would secure his daughter’s inheritance and keep a Plantagenet male line on the English throne
Attempting to arrange a marriage for Norwich to a princess who stands no chance to inherit her father's throne is not equivalent to wedding Norwich to his only child and likely heir.


Richard held no contempt for John of Gaunt. As a matter of fact, they were quite close. Any statements to the contrary are simply not true.
He did attempt to have Gaunt assassinated twice, but I was referring of course to the family generally and Bolingbroke in particular.
 
Elizabeth wouldn't be such an unusual name. Anne's mother was Elizabeth of Pomerania, so with Richard already being an offbeat dude as it is, naming his firstborn daughter after his mother in law is pretty in-character.

I assume that Anne of Bohemia still does more or less on schedule and gives birth to only one child. If it's a boy, it's very straightforward. A boy probably marries Isabella of Valois to secure Richard's long-desired French alliance.

With a girl, it would be prudent for Richard himself to remarry right away, though the pickings are going to be awfully slim if he insists on marrying only a royal princess, but he probably doesn't do that and leaves his daughter in a precarious situation. If he still manages to get himself deposed and murdered, Bolingbroke likely secures Elizabeth's wardship and then marries her to his son Monmouth, while he slides into the regency with his closest allies, while purging Richard's closest supporters.
 
Elizabeth wouldn't be such an unusual name. Anne's mother was Elizabeth of Pomerania, so with Richard already being an offbeat dude as it is, naming his firstborn daughter after his mother in law is pretty in-character.

I assume that Anne of Bohemia still does more or less on schedule and gives birth to only one child. If it's a boy, it's very straightforward. A boy probably marries Isabella of Valois to secure Richard's long-desired French alliance.

With a girl, it would be prudent for Richard himself to remarry right away, though the pickings are going to be awfully slim if he insists on marrying only a royal princess, but he probably doesn't do that and leaves his daughter in a precarious situation. If he still manages to get himself deposed and murdered, Bolingbroke likely secures Elizabeth's wardship and then marries her to his son Monmouth, while he slides into the regency with his closest allies, while purging Richard's closest supporters.
Yeah, I was thinking that Anne would be the one naming the child. Who is Richard likely to remarry? Not Isabella, she can't produce children for a decade or so. Perhaps the daughter marries OTL's Henry V?
 
"Indisputable" is a stretch. There's no precedent for a queen, though clearly she'd be much more difficult to set aside than Mortimer, it's not unthinkable that she'd be passed over.
Both the entails of Edward I and Edward III recognized the rights of daughters to inherit the English crown
What do you mean "a scenario like OTL?" Are you referring to Bolingbroke's exile and return specifically or Richard being deposed

generally?
The first, as Richard losing his crown in different circumstances is not so unlikely.
Attempting to arrange a marriage for Norwich to a princess who stands no chance to inherit her father's throne is not equivalent to wedding Norwich to his only child and likely heir.
Beatrice of Portugal was her father’s heiress meaning who your point is not valid as Jeanne had the same age while Beatrice the same status of Richard’s daughter and Norwick was most likely Richard’s chosen heir in OTL
 
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