WI: Princes in the tower escape,post-bosworth

[Superninja76]

Hi guys! It's super again,and today i was reading about the war of the roses,when i came up with this idea.
What if,after the battle of bosworth,the princes in the tower are revealed to still be alive,and escape to either ireland or calais,and with the support of the remaining pro-yorkist nobles,raise a army and attempt to retake their throne. Is this even possible?
I mean,de la pole tried it using lambert simnel,and real yorkists would probably gain more support than some impostor,which,considering how many troops de la pole had for the battle of stoke (8000ish) might improve their chances in actually winning.

 

[VVD0D95]

Hi guys! It's super again,and today i was reading about the war of the roses,when i came up with this idea.
What if,after the battle of bosworth,the princes in the tower are revealed to still be alive,and escape to either ireland or calais,and with the support of the remaining pro-yorkist nobles,raise a army and attempt to retake their throne. Is this even possible?
I mean,de la pole tried it using lambert simnel,and real yorkists would probably gain more support than some impostor,which,considering how many troops de la pole had for the battle of stoke (8000ish) might improve their chances in actually winning.

Is this in a scenario where Henry vii wins?

 

[Superninja76]

It is,i probably should've put that in.

 

[desmirelle]

Since Henry is the one with the most to lose, and probably responsible for their 'disappearance' in the first place (either directly or by well-meaning 'friends'); he won't have "Titulus Regulus" repealed and the boys will remain bastards, ineligible for the throne and H7 will remain King by conquest - and might marry Elizabeth anyway, to keep her from her brothers, or will marry abroad himself to get his reign recognized. In which case, to a nunnery with Liz.

 

[Superninja76]

Since Henry is the one with the most to lose, and probably responsible for their 'disappearance' in the first place (either directly or by well-meaning 'friends'); he won't have "Titulus Regulus" repealed and the boys will remain bastards, ineligible for the throne and H7 will remain King by conquest - and might marry Elizabeth anyway, to keep her from her brothers, or will marry abroad himself to get his reign recognized. In which case, to a nunnery with Liz.

Hm..
Good point.
What if,they were smuggled to calais or burgundy by a pro-yorkist noble (De la pole?) and,in secret,begin raising a army with burgundian support,while they wait for titus regulus to be repealed.
Also,if needed,i guess two other kids could be put in the tower,i don't think henry tudor had ever seen them before,so he might be fooled by the doubles.

 

[Superninja76]

Oh,depending on when de la pole found lambert,lambert could be used as a body double for richard,to protect him from assassination?

 

[Superninja76]

Thomas stanley also could've smuggled the princes out of the tower,far more easily too since he was the constable of england. Perhaps,so he could be regent/lord protector for edward V if they won? The stanleyites would be a enormous help for the yorkist cause,considering the amount of power they had.

 

[NamelesStatistic]

Interesting topic.

 

[VVD0D95]

Thomas stanley also could've smuggled the princes out of the tower,far more easily too since he was the constable of england. Perhaps,so he could be regent/lord protector for edward V if they won? The stanleyites would be a enormous help for the yorkist cause,considering the amount of power they had.

Stanley was henrys step father, what's the chances he keeps with the Henrican regime to ensure key positions for himself and his kin?

 

[Londinium]

Is there a chance that of them escaping yet neither being interested in the kingship or being anyone's puppet but just wanting to be left alone?

 

[Superninja76]

I'd say 50/50,maybe higher,but he wasn't exactly the most loyal guy.
The yorkist offer for a regent/lord protector position would probably be better than what henry would offer,though,since being lord protector effectively means he'd control all of england for 4 years,probably more though.
And,i'd say it's quite likely edward V would attempt to regain the crown,considering he was raised to hold the position,and his father probably instilled a strong dislike of lancasters in him.

 

[Superninja76]

You guys think this idea is TL-worthy? Because,i've been thinking about writing a timeline for a while,and this doesn't seem terribly hard to do.

 

[Superninja76]

Bump 1

 

[Deleted member 96349]

Well, it was probably Richard III who killed the princes, not Henry VII (he was basically a powerless exile until RIII screwed up enough for the Yorkists to split). So you'd have to change his motives or circumstances.
Maybe a POD where Anne Neville became pregnant again and that made Richard feel secure enough to let his nephews live longer?

I'm not sure what Henry VII would do... If it's after Bosworth then he has already claimed the kingdom, the point of no return, but he will probably not get the Yorkist support he got from marrying Elizabeth of York in OTL.
So it's an even less secure Henry VII VS an officially illegitimate teenage king.
You can basically choose to have your favourite on the throne in this scenario

 

[Superninja76]

Alright,great! I'll look into writing a tl,will post a link to it here if I do.

 

[desmirelle]

Well, it was probably Richard III who killed the princes, not Henry VII

Disagree, once Titulus Regulus was passed, the boys were no longer a threat and could be kept - as they had been all along, in comfortable quarters. Richard had them in protective custody and his personal history to that point showed no treachery to family, in fact, he supported the King when he could have easily turned traitor.

The only person who had anything to lose was H7. He was king by right of 'conquest' and had TR repealed, which would mean E5 was legally king - something H7 would NOT (repeal the act) do unless he KNEW there was no chance of the lost boys showing up, which was why he made such a spectacle of the pretenders.

With R3 dead, H7's PR machine could blame everything on him without fear of reprisal. Even if someone did it thinking to curry favor with the new king Henry, blaming R3 was the smartest thing for H7 to do: the proof is most people immediately think: Richard killed his nephews. So, it worked.

 

[Tonifranz]

Disagree, once Titulus Regulus was passed, the boys were no longer a threat and could be kept - as they had been all along, in comfortable quarters. Richard had them in protective custody and his personal history to that point showed no treachery to family, in fact, he supported the King when he could have easily turned traitor.

The only person who had anything to lose was H7. He was king by right of 'conquest' and had TR repealed, which would mean E5 was legally king - something H7 would NOT (repeal the act) do unless he KNEW there was no chance of the lost boys showing up, which was why he made such a spectacle of the pretenders.

With R3 dead, H7's PR machine could blame everything on him without fear of reprisal. Even if someone did it thinking to curry favor with the new king Henry, blaming R3 was the smartest thing for H7 to do: the proof is most people immediately think: Richard killed his nephews. So, it worked.

Nah, I still think it's Richard III.

The biggest fact was that the princes were never seen alive after 1483. There was not any evidence at all that they were alive in 1484, at all. That was the biggest evidence. Everyone thought that they were dead in 1483. That had nothing to do with Henry VII, who was just a a powerless exile in France. Even Elizabeth Woodville thought them dead. Why did she negotiate with Margaret Beaufort to marry Elizabeth of York to Henry Tudor if she still thinks that her sons were still alive? Why would she support Henry Tudor as king over her own sons?

And Richard did show treachery. When he usurped his nephews. You don't need any propaganda for that. That was the height of treachery. The moment Edward IV died, Edward V was Richard's king, and he committed high treason in deposing them.

Contrast this to Edward, Earl of Warwick, who was shown alive by Richard III, Henry VII, etc, despite to having a superior claim to Henry VII to the throne. Richard III could have easily paraded the princes around in 1484 or 1485 to squash the rumor that he had them killed.

But he didn't. So either they died of natural causes in 1483, or he had them killed.

But to me, they're effectively dead in 1483.

 

[Tyler96]

Disagree, once Titulus Regulus was passed, the boys were no longer a threat and could be kept - as they had been all along, in comfortable quarters.

They would only be nullified as a threat if everyone believed and accepted Titulus Regius, which was nowhere near the case- as long as some people are willing to support them they'll remain a threat, regardless of whether they're "officially" bastards. Wasn't there supposedly an attempt to spring them from the Tower IOTL, which prompted their final disappearance? If so that proves they still had potential to cause trouble.

And Richard did show treachery. When he usurped his nephews. You don't need any propaganda for that. That was the height of treachery. The moment Edward IV died, Edward V was Richard's king, and he committed high treason in deposing them.

Is it treachery if Richard genuinely believed they were bastards? Or genuinely believed the Woodvilles were out to get him, and seizing the throne was the only way to ensure his own safety?

 

[desmirelle]

Once the priest came forward and said Edward IV was precontracted and Parliament passed Titulus Regulus, the boys were bastards - so was Elizabeth of York. That made Richard next in line, that's not treachery, that's taking the offer. And we've only the records left intact by the H7 and his people to tell us of the boys and when they were seen last. History is written by the victors and the losers get blamed. You can't be King Henry VII if you have TR repealed and the boys are still alive. You can be Richard III with TR and Parliament's assent - with the boys alive and well.

Elizabeth I sure got her money's worth from Shakespeare, that's for certain. His Richard III (which is playing tonight) blackened R3's name beyond repair in most people's opinion.

 

[Tonifranz]

They would only be nullified as a threat if everyone believed and accepted Titulus Regius, which was nowhere near the case- as long as some people are willing to support them they'll remain a threat, regardless of whether they're "officially" bastards. Wasn't there supposedly an attempt to spring them from the Tower IOTL, which prompted their final disappearance? If so that proves they still had potential to cause trouble.



Is it treachery if Richard genuinely believed they were bastards? Or genuinely believed the Woodvilles were out to get him, and seizing the throne was the only way to ensure his own safety?

What Richard should have done was to scotch any rumours that they were bastards, loyally supported Edward V, no matter what he thinks of their legitimacy, and executed all who dare question his nephews legitimacy as traitors. No matter what he thinks of his nephews legitimacy.

The fact was, Edward V had the status of a legitimate child during his entire life, was the heir to the throne throughout the entire reign of his father, and swore to his brother that he would support his nephews as king. Edward V wasn't just a bastard born of a peasant woman in some barn in country, he was born of a queen of England, and the recognized wife of Edward IV.