WI: Pius III Had Lived Until 1506?

[Kellan Sullivan]

Pius III was elected pope after the death of Alexander VI. Unfortunately, Pius died after less than a month in office. After him, Pope Julius II was elected, after having struck a deal with Cesare Borgia. Unfortunately for Cesare, Jules stabbed him in the back and expelled the Borgias from the Vatican almost as soon as the tiara was on his head. It marked the end of the Borgia ascendancy over the papacy.

But, in 1503,Cesare was still recovering from the malaria that had felled his father (please no jokes about Ezio and a poisoned apple) when he was caught off guard by the death of Pius. So he accepted Julius' offer, whether in good faith or not, I have no idea. By contrast, by 1506,he would have three years to get his house in order in terms of a new pope. Could he play popemaker again in 1506/1507? Who'd be the likeliest papabile? Or would Pius III do the same to Cesare as what Julius did? After all, nepotism is an accepted practice by this point and Pius III has very little to offer relatives if Cesare is hogging the whole gift basket.

Also, how does Pius surviving, with Cesare likely as de facto head of the army, affect the Italian Wars? Cesare was pro-French at this point, so would the pope go along with Louis XII's Italian ambitions? Or would it proceed in similar fashion to OTL (Julius was pretty pro-French under the Borgias as well IIRC).

And what effect, if any, does this have on the Reformation?

PS: I chose the year at random.

@isabella @material_boy @Nuraghe @renard_ @VVD0D95

 

[renard_]

I think that even if the pope tries to get closer to Paris, I strongly doubt that he will support France's claims to Milan and Naples .

 

[RedKing]

I’m not sure what Pius III’s opinions on these matters were, but if Cesare is still in a pro-French mood in 1506, he could help secure the election of Cardinal d’Amboise, who could tilt the scale of the Italian Wars in France’s favour.

 

[Nuraghe]

Pius III was elected pope after the death of Alexander VI. Unfortunately, Pius died after less than a month in office. After him, Pope Julius II was elected, after having struck a deal with Cesare Borgia. Unfortunately for Cesare, Jules stabbed him in the back and expelled the Borgias from the Vatican almost as soon as the tiara was on his head. It marked the end of the Borgia ascendancy over the papacy.

But, in 1503,Cesare was still recovering from the malaria that had felled his father (please no jokes about Ezio and a poisoned apple) when he was caught off guard by the death of Pius. So he accepted Julius' offer, whether in good faith or not, I have no idea. By contrast, by 1506,he would have three years to get his house in order in terms of a new pope. Could he play popemaker again in 1506/1507? Who'd be the likeliest papabile? Or would Pius III do the same to Cesare as what Julius did? After all, nepotism is an accepted practice by this point and Pius III has very little to offer relatives if Cesare is hogging the whole gift basket.

Also, how does Pius surviving, with Cesare likely as de facto head of the army, affect the Italian Wars? Cesare was pro-French at this point, so would the pope go along with Louis XII's Italian ambitions? Or would it proceed in similar fashion to OTL (Julius was pretty pro-French under the Borgias as well IIRC).

And what effect, if any, does this have on the Reformation?

PS: I chose the year at random.

@isabella @material_boy @Nuraghe @renard_ @VVD0D95

Piuos III ( he was ill with an incurable disease )considering that he would have been a creature of Cesare I would not say (he will keep them in charge of papal gonfaloniere and confirm the lordships of the Borgias in Romagna, even if he will have to fight hard to oust the various noble families among which we must not forget Catherine Sforza) furthermore he will not tarnish his predecessor (such as Otl Julius II sworn enemy of Alexander VI) it remains to be seen whether he will be more interested in stopping the French like Della Rovere or allied with them (given Cesare's marriage in Navarre) I don't know if he will continue to remove the rot in the church (Rodrigo however scandalous it was in the norm for the papacy of the time, moreover the beginning of reforms to clean the marched in the Vatican (by doing so he could hit his many enemies and install in their place people trusted by him in important positions and if in the process becomes get rich himself, this confiscated money he then used to gain the favor of the Roman people by building monuments and more, he was also very rigorous in enforcing Catholic orthodoxy in his domains and not (famous were the cases in which he personally examined the cases of alleged heresy) but I agree that it is not in the papal interest to have France in both Naples and Milan (in Rome they remember the Avignon papacy and the houffenstaufen too well) so I would opt for a balance, I see it hard on the other hand for the doctors (since from Sixtus IV onwards all the relatives of the pope in office tried to create a personal fiefdom either in Romagna or you have damage to Florence, except Innocent VIII puppet of Lorenzo the Magnificent (exemplary were the cousins of the della Rovere or the Riarios who plotted with the Pazzi) also you have to see the role of the emperor here, will Maximilian be able to make his way into Italy to go to Rome? will he be recognized as emperor even without coronation? (it was a Julius II thing)

eh that Giuliano della Rovere under the pontificate of Alexander VI was head of the pro-French faction does not surprise me given the strong antagonism between the two ( since fearing for his life in 1492 he fled to France and it was he who pushed Charles to invade Italy ) it must also be considered that in the early years Rodrigo was pro-Spanish)

della Rovere at least he was the founder of the Vatican museums and swiss guard and finally great patron of Bramante and Michelangelo

moreover, from recent studies it cannot be excluded that Alexander VI died poisoned by the Orsini family (another thesis very popular among historians and men of letters on his death in addition to the official one of malaria)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

but I agree that it is not in the papal interest to have France in both Naples and Milan

certainly not. Fortunately, Louis XII has no claim to Naples (at least, genetically he doesn't, what he believed is another matter). So perhaps Pius can use that to strike a balance "I'll recognize you as duke of Milan if you give up on Naples". Louis can refuse, but at least then Pius can say "hey, I tried".

also you have to see the role of the emperor here, will Maximilian be able to make his way into Italy to go to Rome?

it was financial reasons why he was unable to travel, wasn't it?

will he be recognized as emperor even without coronation? (it was a Julius II thing)

that depends what relations between Max and Pius are like, I guess. Max isn't going to be thrilled at the pope just handing Milan to the French. But I don't see Max swooping into Italy at the head of an army to depose the pope. Particularly if Louis doesn't take the bait. And wasn't Louis XII coming to depose Julius II when the latter died anyway?

moreover, from recent studies it cannot be excluded that Alexander VI died poisoned by the Orsini family (another thesis very popular among historians and men of letters on his death in addition to the official one of malaria)

what relation would Pius III have with the Orsinis, do you think?

 

[Joshuaaiden1223]

Can you make a AI Art Generated Painting Of The Aztecs Hunting A Mammoth

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Can you make a AI Art Generated Painting Of The Aztecs Hunting A Mammoth

sadly no. Why do you ask?

 

[Nuraghe]

certainly not. Fortunately, Louis XII has no claim to Naples (at least, genetically he doesn't, what he believed is another matter). So perhaps Pius can use that to strike a balance "I'll recognize you as duke of Milan if you give up on Naples". Louis can refuse, but at least then Pius can say "hey, I tried".


it was financial reasons why he was unable to travel, wasn't it?


that depends what relations between Max and Pius are like, I guess. Max isn't going to be thrilled at the pope just handing Milan to the French. But I don't see Max swooping into Italy at the head of an army to depose the pope. Particularly if Louis doesn't take the bait. And wasn't Louis XII coming to depose Julius II when the latter died anyway?


what relation would Pius III have with the Orsinis, do you think?

partly yes, but he couldn't afford to go down to Italy because in this way he left Burgundy uncovered to a French attack (which was either neutral when Philip was there or in a delicate regency for Charles) and Milan in French hands he won't like but for now he can't do anything about it.

Yes, Luigi was going down to depose Giulio (who had an anti-French policy since he ascended to the papal throne, always saying the barbarians out).

since he was a compromise candidate I think he would have a good relationship at the beginning but if he continues to follow Cesare then relations deteriorate immediately (since Cesare had the Colonnas on his side )

 

[isabella]

partly yes, but he couldn't afford to go down to Italy because in this way he left Burgundy uncovered to a French attack (which was either neutral when Philip was there or in a delicate regency for Charles) and Milan in French hands he won't like but for now he can't do anything about it.

Yes, Luigi was going down to depose Giulio (who had an anti-French policy since he ascended to the papal throne, always saying the barbarians out).

since he was a compromise candidate I think he would have a good relationship at the beginning but if he continues to follow Cesare then relations deteriorate immediately (since Cesare had the Colonnas on his side )

The Borgia were allied with the Orsini while the Colonna were friends of Julius II. Things and alliances were quite variable but most of times were like that…

 

[Nuraghe]

The Borgia were allied with the Orsini while the Colonna were friends of Julius II. Things and alliances were quite variable but most of times were like that…

in the last years it was like this but at the beginning it was the Orsini that Cesare attacked with an unequaled fury

 

[isabella]

in the last years it was like this but at the beginning it was the Orsini that Cesare attacked with an unequaled fury

Cesare maybe but the Orsini had been long allies of the Borgia (Alexander VI’s cousin was wife to one of the Orsini)

 

[GameBawesome]

From what I remember reading, Cesare Borgia was planning a campaign into Tuscany before the death of his Father. Had Pius III lived longer than Cesare Borgia maybe able to start his campaign. The question is how successful he is or if he doesn’t get killed.

Also, I believe by this point the Borgias had control of most of Romagna, so best case scenario, Cesare able to establish a duchy like how the House of Farnese did in Parma.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

From what I remember reading, Cesare Borgia was planning a campaign into Tuscany before the death of his Father. Had Pius III lived longer than Cesare Borgia maybe able to start his campaign. The question is how successful he is or if he doesn’t get killed.

Also, I believe by this point the Borgias had control of most of Romagna, so best case scenario, Cesare able to establish a duchy like how the House of Farnese did in Parma.

The question is whether the campaign into Tuscany would alienate or aid his Medici allies

 

[Nuraghe]

The question is whether the campaign into Tuscany would alienate or aid his Medici allies

it depends on who it is addressed to : if towards Siena then the Medici could jump in ( but seeing that he was marching to punish the city he had aided in the plot to kill him, see Pandolfo Petrucci and Senigallia massacre, then once Siena was taken he wanted to capture Pisa )
but if instead it was towards Florence then things take a completely different turn.

and yes Cesare had full control of Romagna where he re-established order among the cities that were previously divided into many different appanages (with different laws from each other) furthermore it seems that his regime which was very draconian was much appreciated by the Romagna people

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

it depends on who it is addressed to : if towards Siena then the Medici could jump in ( but seeing that he was marching to punish the city he had aided in the plot to kill him, see Pandolfo Petrucci and Senigallia massacre, then once Siena was taken he wanted to capture Pisa )
but if instead it was towards Florence then things take a completely different turn.

Which seems more likely?

I’m not sure what Pius III’s opinions on these matters were, but if Cesare is still in a pro-French mood in 1506, he could help secure the election of Cardinal d’Amboise, who could tilt the scale of the Italian Wars in France’s favour.

IIRC Amboise wasn't elected at the French sponsored council of Pisa, but rather Cardinal Carvajal (who took the rather ironic name of Martin VI*).

*ironic in the sense that in TLs where Luther gets elected pope, this is the name he normally takes.

 

[Nuraghe]

Which seems more likely?


IIRC Amboise wasn't elected at the French sponsored council of Pisa, but rather Cardinal Carvajal (who took the rather ironic name of Martin VI*).

*ironic in the sense that in TLs where Luther gets elected pope, this is the name he normally takes.

Siena, since one of the conspirators was governor of the city

 

[RedKing]

IIRC Amboise wasn't elected at the French sponsored council of Pisa, but rather Cardinal Carvajal (who took the rather ironic name of Martin VI*).

Amboise was dead in 1513 and if I am not lost mistaken, the cardinals at the time weren’t as open to a French pope.

 

[Nuraghe]

Amboise was dead in 1513 and if I am not lost mistaken, the cardinals at the time weren’t as open to a French pope.

well said, no one wanted a French pontiff (especially with France which would be legitimized even more for its actions with this fact, the Avignon papacy is still in everyone's memory so they will be very careful to avoid this

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

well said, no one wanted a French pontiff (especially with France which would be legitimized even more for its actions with this fact, the Avignon papacy is still in everyone's memory so they will be very careful to avoid this

could Carvajal then get in at the 1506 conclave? He was also a Borgia pet wasn't he?

 

[Nuraghe]

could Carvajal then get in at the 1506 conclave? He was also a Borgia pet wasn't he?

it was first a creation of pope Cybo, in 1492 he was also ambassador of the Catholic kings to the Holy See, he became a cardinal with Alessandro (after having served at the emperor until 1496)
under Julius he had many career advancements but being the head of the cardinals who declared the pope deposed
in 1511 in council of Pisa ( which was supported by Louis XII and Maximilian , but the group of cardinals was small, about 6/7 in all ) he was excommunicated for it