WI: Ottonians last as long as the Capetians

What if the Ottonian dynasty never died out in the male line, like OTL Capetians? Say Otto III lived long enough to have a son, and his son had a son, etc, etc.

Say the Ottonian dynasty in the direct line lasted until the 1300s, and all kings after that would be from cadet branches of the Saxon dynasty.

Would their family be de facto hereditary kings of Germany and Emperors?
 
That's possible, but would happen differently from than Capetians, would it be because German feudal principalities (including Ottonian proper demesne) were generally more unified, and that Ottonian kingship is less due to electivity proper, than electivity and important political power.

While the depiction of Early Capetians as powerless is more of a romanticist historiography than anything realist, Ottonians were certainly much more powerful in Germany than Capetians were in France.

Meaning a probable more important opposition, as it existed IOTL (and one of the reasons why Ottonians went after imperial legitimacy) and that would be a factor of instability, contrary to France where feudal principalities were generally particularly divided themselves (save Normandy or Flanders, that didn't avoid themselves disunity, but where it was relatively more limited) and where Capetians managed to first unify their demenesne and then to play on their neighbours divisions.

While rules of successions are essentially based on long-term events (Capetian succession rules beneficied a lot from dynastical stability and continuous father/son crown transmission), I'd still think that German kingship and critically Imperial kingship (would it be only because of the pontifical role in its legitimacy and transmission) would be more contested in their continuous succession.

Maybe a de facto, then de jure German kingship being hereditary (but, again, in its own form rather than similar to Capetians); but I don't really think so for Imperial kingship : it may be tied a lot to TTL German kingship but still probably distinct.
 
That's possible, but would happen differently from than Capetians, would it be because German feudal principalities (including Ottonian proper demesne) were generally more unified, and that Ottonian kingship is less due to electivity proper, than electivity and important political power.

While the depiction of Early Capetians as powerless is more of a romanticist historiography than anything realist, Ottonians were certainly much more powerful in Germany than Capetians were in France.

Meaning a probable more important opposition, as it existed IOTL (and one of the reasons why Ottonians went after imperial legitimacy) and that would be a factor of instability, contrary to France where feudal principalities were generally particularly divided themselves (save Normandy or Flanders, that didn't avoid themselves disunity, but where it was relatively more limited) and where Capetians managed to first unify their demenesne and then to play on their neighbours divisions.

While rules of successions are essentially based on long-term events (Capetian succession rules beneficied a lot from dynastical stability and continuous father/son crown transmission), I'd still think that German kingship and critically Imperial kingship (would it be only because of the pontifical role in its legitimacy and transmission) would be more contested in their continuous succession.

Maybe a de facto, then de jure German kingship being hereditary (but, again, in its own form rather than similar to Capetians); but I don't really think so for Imperial kingship : it may be tied a lot to TTL German kingship but still probably distinct.

Since being Emperor is tied in this period with being crowned by the Pope, then I agree that being King of Germany would not automatically mean that he would be Emperor, since a particular king might not bother going down to Rome or might die before he could be crowned by the pope. But making the German kingship de facto hereditary would strengthen the hands of the king vis a vis his subjects, since he doesn't have to fight pretenders or have to fight for his son to succeed in kingship.

But would the Pope dare crown another person as emperor who weren't German king yet? Since after 962, I can't think of a single emperor who wasn't German king first. So perhaps a situation would happen were not all kings of Germany would be emperor, but all emperors would be German kings, and if it was de facto hereditary, all would be Ottonians?

And what about the prospect of a king eventually, in the far distant future, just declaring himself emperor elect, like OTL Maximilian, in such a scenario, without resort to papal coronation (keeping the legal fiction of German elective monarchy, if de facto hereditary)?
 
But making the German kingship de facto hereditary would strengthen the hands of the king vis a vis his subjects, since he doesn't have to fight pretenders or have to fight for his son to succeed in kingship.
But he would have to do that ITTL, even with a stabler dynastic succession, would it be only due to the different geopolitical situation : Capetians benefited from having, if they were relatively weakened themselves, from feudal principalities that neighboured them were as well, if not even more, divided themselves.

Ottonians would have to deal with more unified, more strong and more or less equals in political power when it come to Germany itself, principalities. Contrary to Capetian suzerainty that managed to play on urban freedoms, small lords, suzerainty on vavassor to weaken and won over their immediate rivals; Ottonians would have a more hard time doing so.

Meaning that while Capetian suzerainty became gradually more and more of a present thing, a strong Ottonian suzerainty over strong feudal lords would be more disputed, maybe up to the succession even with a dynastic continuity.

Furthermore, even if Imperial kingship would be distinct, it would be de facto identified as IOTL with a rule over the whole empire, including Germany. Giving that, from its quite particular nature, immediate hereditary succession may have trouble to be adopted for it, its association with Germanic kingship would make it harder to became immediatly hereditary.

Not that you can't end with an hereditary succession, but for these reasons, I think it would be more of a mediatized succesion in a first time, and eventually more regularly contested than in Capetian France, even with a dynastic continuity.

Even if it's likely to end with a continued Ottonian rule, it wouldn't look like a Capetian rule only superficially germanized : it would be something much more adapted to realities (and incidentally, having more chances to last this way).

But would the Pope dare crown another person as emperor who weren't German king yet? Since after 962, I can't think of a single emperor who wasn't German king first.
That's mostly, pointed above, that because being used distinctivly, King of Romans (itself pretty much tied to Imperial kingship : one was Rex Romanorum because claiming the imperium) and King of Germany became de facto a same thing.

That's precisely the problem I was talking above : German kingship became more and more tied up with Imperial kingship, and eventually more dependent of noble and pontifical legitimacy, producing an important number of anti-kings.

So perhaps a situation would happen were not all kings of Germany would be emperor, but all emperors would be German kings, and if it was de facto hereditary, all would be Ottonians?
It's possible, after all it happened with Henry VII of Germany, but giving the growing identification of German kingship with Imperial kingship, pontifical and noble meddling with Imperial titles would have an important influence over Ottonian legitimacy nevertheless.

And what about the prospect of a king eventually, in the far distant future, just declaring himself emperor elect, like OTL Maximilian,
I don't really see it happening with a classical medieval mindset, where pontifical legitimacy, when tied up to not only Imperial title, but as well Rex Romanorum title is that important.

IOTL, while the pope technically didn't have to intervene on much formal French kingship election, representatives were still often present. You can't just get rid of it too soon : while Capetian hereditary succession was immediate (neither sacre or coronation made the king) you had too much precedent (percevied or historical) with Imperial/Roman titles to get away with.

Maybe a greater distanciation from German kingship and Rex Romanorum/Imperial titles? It's going hard to reach, giving the legitimacy boost it represented : eventually, no Ottonian HRE may be best for this precise objective.
 
Well it's not like Holy Roman Emperors, king of the Romans and/or German kings didn't or couldn't intervene in the stem duchies. The Ottonians managed to make their candidates dukes of Swabia and Bavaria. They themselves had the stem duchy of Saxony as their dynastic homeland and after a short rule under the Conradines, Franconia again became part of the royal demesne.

German kingship could become hereditary as could them inheriting Italy and (later) Burgundy too. The imperial kingship is a bit more complicated, though they could still end up being in an emperor-elect role as king of the Romans, a title, I agree, they'll keep (claiming) once they obtain it. The actual imperial coronation will mean having to deal with the Papacy.
OTOH a Roman-German king with a stable succession will be in a more favourable position to deal with the Papacy.
 
I think the answer to the question will be found by looking at a later dynasty who did last 300 years on the Imperial throne.

The Habsburgs.

They came to power first in 1273-1291 and 1298-1308. Looks like it was just temporary. But after the extinction of the Luxembourg dynasty, Albert II married the daughter of the last Luxembourg Emperor, Sigismund, and he succeeded to the Imperial title in 1438. Then the Habsburgs remained emperor until the death of Charles VI in 1740, and only because the Habsburg male line failed during that time.

If a dynasty that late, during a period of extreme decentralization, when the principle of election was incontestable and regulated by the Golden Bull, the HRE and German kingship became de facto hereditary in the Habsburg, when even their enemies would vote for them like Frederick of Palatinate voting for Ferdinand II in 1619, when even protestant electors would vote for Catholic Habsburgs, how much more if it was not a late dynasty like the Habsburgs but the Ottonians who would not die out?

Even bitterest enemies might vote for the Ottonians like Habsburg enemies voted for them in Imperial enemies.

So I think that the Ottonians would become hereditary German Kings if they last as long as the Capetians, but de facto, not de jure.
 
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Janprimus said:
Well it's not like Holy Roman Emperors, king of the Romans and/or German kings didn't or couldn't intervene in the stem duchies.
Who said they didn't? My point wasn't they couldn't but that they would have to fight against powerful, relatively unified principalties that didn't really existed as such in France, save exceptions.

Franconia again became part of the royal demesne.
German kings having a large demesne in the Xth century is another important difference : contrary to Late Carolingians and Capetians that essentially stopped to give away lands and titles (mostly because they didn't had much choice), a large German royal demense means capacities and expectations about redistribution (they did so, IOTL, mostly on Church as it was going to be more stable and submissive than secular princes).

So while it makes Ottonians more territorialy powerful it not only sharpen feudal opposition, but asks the problem of redistribution once/if N-E border stucks.

Not that Ottonians would fail managing so (in fact, I don't believe they will), but it would be another important difference for that Germanic kingship would evolve differently from French kingship, and to not make them a full "German Capetian" equivalent.

OTOH a Roman-German king with a stable succession will be in a more favourable position to deal with the Papacy.
Possibly, but it would be mostly context-related. Too much close Roman/German kingship means making Papacy able to intervene not only in Italy, but as well in Germany IOTL (The creation of multiple anti-rex IOTL points that it wasn't only the imperial title strictly speaking that was the object of contestation, but Rex Romanorum as well), which in turns means that at the first crisis, Ottonian German kingship would be contested on many grounds at once.

Eventually, I think it would be still merged, would it be for legitimacy purposes, but Papacy interventionism would still be to be understood as part of Germanic/Roman kingship. When it played no real role, even if at least a symbolical, with Capetians election.

I'll stress it again : I'm not talking about Ottonians being successful or not, or ,how much. But there I'm mostly focusing on what would like a Germanic kingship with a Ottonian would look like, and I think there's too many differences (political, symbolical, etc.) with Capetians for that using the latter to describe what would happen in Germany to be fitting.

I think the answer to the question will be found by looking at a later dynasty who did last 300 years on the Imperial throne.
I must say I'm not really convinced.
Political conception, not only imperial but on what was royal power, bureaucratic power, etc. were simply too important between the Xth century and the XIVth century for that Habsburgs can be used in the former period.


when even their enemies would vote for them like Frederick of Palatinate voting for Ferdinand II in 1619, when even protestant electors would vote for Catholic Habsburgs
We're talking of a period were either the protestants princes voted for them, knowing that anti-rex would be chosen by the Roman pontiff otherwise (something they weren't that keen to give him) or would it be only because the imperial title became more and more irrelevant.

In the Xth/XIth centuries, pontifical interventionism wouldn't cause much issues at first (at least it would have been seen as a viable alternative), and the imperial title of Ottonians was kinda relevant.
 
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