WI: Olympic Games from 1796?

[JonasResende]

Came across an interesting wikipedia article where the Directory organized a series of athletics games at the Champ de Mars in 1796, 1797 and 1798.

1796 and 97's were pretty standard. Foot races, chariot races. And all participants were French. There's an opening and closing ceremony etc.

Then in 1798 wrestling, equestrian competitions and distance races entered the program. We see a parade of athletes before hand, and the competition is opened to citizens from the recently conquered provinces in Italy, the Netherlands and Switzerland.

So, what if the Olympiade had outlasted the Directory? Maybe even lasted into the Empire? Imagine the Congress of Erfurt or even the Congress of Vienna being an Olympic Games sort of event! And that the Restauration (let's face it, I don't see a POD like this changing much in politics for a good while yet) is obliged to let the Games continue since its so popular (the 1796 games drew 300000 people) that to DISESTABLISH it will cause more harm than good.

What would the impact on sports history be? Would the program expand? Would these games resemble our Olympics in any way? I mean, in ancient times the Olympics were "the games that stopped wars", but I don't see that happening here. Still I thought it would be a cool idea to incorporate into my TL when I get back to it.

 

[JonasResende]

Any thoughts on this? I was wondering if it would lead to the development of "new" sports - different sports to what we know. I mean, rugby, baseball, American football all had their "start" in the 19th century AFAIK (their "official" start, rounders and cricket had been around for a while before that).

 

[Brita]

Any thoughts on this? I was wondering if it would lead to the development of "new" sports - different sports to what we know. I mean, rugby, baseball, American football all had their "start" in the 19th century AFAIK (their "official" start, rounders and cricket had been around for a while before that).

From a French Wikipedia article on 18th-century sports:
A few sports played in France:
Fencing
Horse races
Jeu de paume (at the time of the French Revolution, there were very few players)
Soule
Water wrestling

And regional sports:
Basque pelota
Gouren or Breton wrestling
And certainly many more

The first flights in hot air balloons took place in the 1780s - there even was a Channel crossing in 1785.

Sports played in Revolutionary France:
Water jousting on the Seine in 1790
Foot race, horse race, chariot race and "ring race" (i.e. running six times around an arena) in the 1796 and 1797 Olympiads
Wrestling, jousting and more foot races in the 1798 Olympiad

Breton wrestling or gouren and several foot races Brittany in 1798

Parachuting in 1797 (first man) and 1799 (first woman)

So to sum up there could be:
Chariot races
Fencing
Foot races
Horse races
Hot-air balloons races
Jeu de paume
Jousting
Parachuting (but I'm not sure what the rules would be )
Ring races
Soule and other similar sports so why not some kind of football and rugby
Water jousting
Wrestling

And regional sports - either each province organise trials for its own sports, or there's a special day for sport trials from all provinces.

 

[Brita]

Oh and maybe women can start taking part to the competitions rather early - I'm thinking of those who practiced fencing, hot-air balloon flying and parachuting.

 

[JonasResende]

Oh and maybe women can start taking part to the competitions rather early - I'm thinking of those who practiced fencing, hot-air balloon flying and parachuting.

That could be interesting in more ways than one:

Imagine "and now, our currently defending fencing champion, Citoyen Joseph de Boulogne will face off against [insert contender here]".

Boulogne aka Chevalier de Saint-Georges was the bastard son of a planter from Guadeloupe by his wife's Senegalese housemaid.
We know the Saint-Georges was a volunteer in the Garde Lillois (I think) and that he was widely regarded as one of the best fencers and boxers to come out of France.

From a French Wikipedia article on 18th-century sports:
A few sports played in France:
Fencing
Horse races
Jeu de paume (at the time of the French Revolution, there were very few players)
Soule
Water wrestling

And regional sports:
Basque pelota
Gouren or Breton wrestling
And certainly many more

The first flights in hot air balloons took place in the 1780s - there even was a Channel crossing in 1785.

Sports played in Revolutionary France:
Water jousting on the Seine in 1790
Foot race, horse race, chariot race and "ring race" (i.e. running six times around an arena) in the 1796 and 1797 Olympiads
Wrestling, jousting and more foot races in the 1798 Olympiad

Breton wrestling or gouren and several foot races Brittany in 1798

Parachuting in 1797 (first man) and 1799 (first woman)

So to sum up there could be:
Chariot races
Fencing
Foot races
Horse races
Hot-air balloons races
Jeu de paume
Jousting
Parachuting (but I'm not sure what the rules would be )
Ring races
Soule and other similar sports so why not some kind of football and rugby
Water jousting
Wrestling

And regional sports - either each province organise trials for its own sports, or there's a special day for sport trials from all provinces.

I like it.
The wiki article mentions that there was a similar tournament held in Angers where there were also sporting events and three crowned champions, so if anyone could find more on that, maybe try to combine the two.

 

[galanx]

Your problem, if the Games continue like the present four-year cycle, is 1804, 1808, and 1812. You couldn't have them in 1812 without massive butterflies, and probably not 1808. Still, if you had them in 1796, 1800, and 1804, you could have 1816 as 'the return to normalcy' Olympics.

 

[Brita]

That could be interesting in more ways than one:

Imagine "and now, our currently defending fencing champion, Citoyen Joseph de Boulogne will face off against [insert contender here]".

Boulogne aka Chevalier de Saint-Georges was the bastard son of a planter from Guadeloupe by his wife's Senegalese housemaid.
We know the Saint-Georges was a volunteer in the Garde Lillois (I think) and that he was widely regarded as one of the best fencers and boxers to come out of France.

I didn't know he was a boxer! Actually I didn't mention boxing as it didn't seem to be a very common sport in France.
France is at war with most Europe at this time but once the wars are over, other countries can join the Olympic Games adn their sports will be introduced of course.

Maybe shooting trials can be organised too. With the country at war, the government may think it's a good way of training young men. And I suddenly remember there used to be a sport called papegault or papegai in several French regions, like the British popinjay. People used to try and shoot down a wooden bird attached to a pole, using bows and crossbows in the Middle Ages but in the 1840s, a Breton author mentioned a later variant where the bird was replaced by a large nail half-struck in a wooden board. People shot at it with guns and had to sink the nail comepletely into the board.

The papegault in the Middle Ages​

 

[Brita]

Your problem, if the Games continue like the present four-year cycle, is 1804, 1808, and 1812. You couldn't have them in 1812 without massive butterflies, and probably not 1808. Still, if you had them in 1796, 1800, and 1804, you could have 1816 as 'the return to normalcy' Olympics.

Since the last Games took place in 1798 OTL, maybe they can continue the cycle from this year on: 1802, 1806, 1810... The 1814 Games would be annulled, unless they're so popular the Bourbons decide to keep them.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Sorry for a post to an old thread, but I was wondering how war would affect these sporting events? Would it be as simple as something like Coalition powers would only deign to participate during the Amiens interlude? Maybe a 1936 Olympics type set up Or would these "modern" Olympics emulate the ancient Olympiads as "the games that stopped wars"?

 

[Help]

Sorry for a post to an old thread, but I was wondering how war would affect these sporting events? Would it be as simple as something like Coalition powers would only deign to participate during the Amiens interlude? Maybe a 1936 Olympics type set up Or would these "modern" Olympics emulate the ancient Olympiads as "the games that stopped wars"?

I would assume it depend on the country, with the UK holding out.

 

[JonasResende]

Since the last Games took place in 1798 OTL, maybe they can continue the cycle from this year on: 1802, 1806, 1810... The 1814 Games would be annulled, unless they're so popular the Bourbons decide to keep them.

Maybe as a sort of "bread and circuses" demo that "see, we're not against everything republican"?

 

[JonasResende]

Sorry for a post to an old thread, but I was wondering how war would affect these sporting events? Would it be as simple as something like Coalition powers would only deign to participate during the Amiens interlude? Maybe a 1936 Olympics type set up Or would these "modern" Olympics emulate the ancient Olympiads as "the games that stopped wars"?

I would assume it depend on the country, with the UK holding out.

That's actually a valid question, IMO. I think in the Napoléonic Wars these games would probably see participation of the "component" parts of the French Republic/Empire (Batavia/Holland, Italy, Etruria, Naples, Switzerland, Spain), as well as their allies of the day (depending on the year of the Olimpiade). So, depending on when the 1802 Olimpiade is held (and I could see it being used to "celebrate" the Peace of Amiens as "propaganda"), Britain might participate in the 1802 games, but then not take part in 1806, or 1810 (in which case I could see the games once more being used to celebrate Napoléon's remarriage, so expect an Austrian contingent - as at the 1806 games after the Treaty of Pressburg). 1806 is a year too early for Tilsit and by the next Olimpiade (1810), Russia and France would be on the outs again.

 

[JonasResende]

How I could see the Bourbons "keeping" these games is that prep is already underway in April 1814 when Napoléon is sent off to Elba. The Bourbons don't like it, but they recognize how "shaky" everything is ATM, besides, with all these foreign troops in Paris (OTL the Prussians wanted to blow up the Pont d'Iena, and somebody important actually had to go sit on it to get them to not do it IIRC) and tensions running high, is that the Bourbons see these "games" as a good way, both of distracting the people (the bread and circuses) as well as a "release valve" of tensions (foreign participants at the 1814 games would most likely be soldiers from the foreign armies billeted in Paris at the time).

Either way, the games go off without too much of a scuffle. Perhaps even the obese Louis XVIII is persuaded to attend (simply by dint of someone like Alexander I of Russia or one of the other rulers then in Paris attending and the Bourbons not wanting to be "upstaged"), and when the 1818 Olimpiade rolls around again the Bourbons "grudgingly" agree to it, this time to celebrate the pregnancy of the duchesse de Berri (if the games are early enough in the year, no one can know that the son she's carrying won't live) - a sort of showing "anything Bonaparte can do, we can do better" (if Napoléon only used it to celebrate his remarriage then look here, our dynasty's continuing, his is fallen).

Of course, they might be hesistant for an 1822 spectacle with the failure of the duchesse de Berri's 1818 pregnancy, followed in 1820 duc de Berri's murder and all but, it's a case of I doubt the ball's roll can be stopped now.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

That's actually a valid question, IMO. I think in the Napoléonic Wars these games would probably see participation of the "component" parts of the French Republic/Empire (Batavia/Holland, Italy, Etruria, Naples, Switzerland, Spain), as well as their allies of the day (depending on the year of the Olimpiade). So, depending on when the 1802 Olimpiade is held (and I could see it being used to "celebrate" the Peace of Amiens as "propaganda"), Britain might participate in the 1802 games, but then not take part in 1806, or 1810 (in which case I could see the games once more being used to celebrate Napoléon's remarriage, so expect an Austrian contingent - as at the 1806 games after the Treaty of Pressburg). 1806 is a year too early for Tilsit and by the next Olimpiade (1810), Russia and France would be on the outs again.

In response I quote from Hariri's 21 Lessons for the 21st Century. Now admittedly I personally find Hariri sadly lacking/prejudiced as a historian (however that is neither here nor there), and I apologize in advance for any inaccuracies in what he writes. I'm merely adding it because I think that PARTS of what he says is true - namely not being sure who would show up and if they would have a country to go home to - when speaking of a Medieval Olympics:

Some of these countries have been engaged in bitter war with one another, but during the tumultuous twentieth century only three Games were cancelled due to war (in 1916, 1940 and 1944). In 1980 the USA and some of its allies boycotted the Moscow Olympics, in 1984 the Soviet bloc boycotted the Los Angeles Games, and on several other occasions the Olympics found themselves at the centre of a political storm (most notably in 1936, when Nazi Berlin hosted the Games, and in 1972, when Palestinian terrorists
massacred the Israeli delegation to the Munich Olympics). Yet on the whole, political controversies have not derailed the Olympic project.

Now let’s go back 1,000 years. Suppose you wanted to hold the Medieval Olympic Games in Rio in 1016. Forget for a moment that Rio was then a small village of Tupi Indians,12 and that Asians, Africans and Europeans were not even aware of America’s existence. Forget the logistical problems of bringing all the world’s top athletes to Rio in the absence of airplanes. Forget too that few sports were shared throughout the world, and even if all humans
could run, not everybody could agree on the same rules for a running competition. Just ask yourself how to group the competing delegations. Today’s International Olympic Committee spends countless hours discussing
the Taiwan question and the Palestine question. Multiply this by 10,000 to estimate the number of hours you would have to spend on the politics of the Medieval Olympics.

For starters, in 1016 the Chinese Song Empire recognised no political entity on earth as its equal. It would therefore be an unthinkable humiliation to give its Olympic delegation the same status as that granted to the delegations of the Korean kingdom of Koryo or of the Vietnamese kingdom of Dai Co Viet – not to mention the delegations of primitive barbarians from across the seas.

The caliph in Baghdad also claimed universal hegemony, and most Sunni Muslims recognised him as their supreme leader. In practical terms, however, the caliph barely ruled the city of Baghdad. So would all Sunni athletes be part of a single caliphate delegation, or would they be separated into dozens of delegations from the numerous emirates and sultanates of the Sunni world? But why stop with the emirates and sultanates? The Arabian Desert was teaming with free Bedouin tribes, who recognised no overlord save Allah. Would each be entitled to send an independent delegation to compete in
archery or camel racing? Europe would give you any number of similar headaches. Would an athlete from the Norman town of Ivry compete under the banner of the local Count of Ivry, of his lord the Duke of Normandy, or perhaps of the feeble King of France?

Many of these political entities appeared and disappeared within a matter of years. As you made your preparations for the 1016 Olympics, you could not know in advance which delegations would show up, because nobody
could be sure which political entities would still exist next year. If the kingdom of England had sent a delegation to the 1016 Olympics, by the time the athletes came home with their medals they would have discovered that the Danes had just captured London, and that England was being absorbed into the North Sea Empire of King Cnut the Great, together with Denmark,
Norway and parts of Sweden. Within another twenty years, that empire disintegrated, but thirty years later England was conquered again, by the Duke of Normandy.

Needless to say, the vast majority of these ephemeral political entities had neither anthem to play nor flag to hoist. Political symbols were of great importance, of course, but the symbolic language of European politics was very different from the symbolic languages of Indonesian, Chinese or Tupi politics. Agreeing on a common protocol to mark victory would have been
well-nigh impossible.

So when you watch the Tokyo Games in 2020, remember that this seeming competition between nations actually represents an astonishing global agreement. For all the national pride people feel when their delegation wins a gold medal and their flag is raised, there is far greater reason to feel pride that humankind is capable of organising such an event.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

1806 is a year too early for Tilsit and by the next Olimpiade (1810), Russia and France would be on the outs again.

What about something like "extraordinary" games in 1807. Something like a more "compact" version of Paris'? Competed at Tilsit, maybe only between the French and Russians (more like Field of the Cloth of Gold between Henry VIII and François I than an ACTUAL Olympics).

 

[JonasResende]

In response I quote from Hariri's 21 Lessons for the 21st Century. Now admittedly I personally find Hariri sadly lacking/prejudiced as a historian (however that is neither here nor there), and I apologize in advance for any inaccuracies in what he writes. I'm merely adding it because I think that PARTS of what he says is true - namely not being sure who would show up and if they would have a country to go home to - when speaking of a Medieval Olympics:

God, it sounds like a nightmare .

However, I find myself disagreeing with Hariri in part. True, one CAN'T be sure that the map of Europe would look EXACTLY the same, the chances are good that - given the comparatively "primitive" state of sportsmanship at the time (compared with today, and still MORE in 1016), that the example of "professional athletes" as we know them are few and far between. Marksmen, wrestlers, horsemen, boxers and fencers are likely to be soldiers first, athletes second. Also, I DOUBT that these games would last LONGER than a week (maybe two at most, since I could see several "athletes" competing in more than one discipline - the Chevalier de Saint-Georges in boxing and fencing, for instance).

So, I DOUBT there would be AS MUCH logistical prep in 1796-1814 as there would be in 2016/2020.

Secondly, while the Revolution TRIGGERED nationalism OTL, I could half see that Napoléon (or whoever is in charge) would lump ALL participants under the heading of the state they belong to. Now, with the sister republics like Helvetia, Lemanic, Rhaetia, Rauricia (for Switzerland) or Cisalpine, Transalpine, Transpadane, Ligurian, Parthenopean, Cispadane (for Italy) this would OBVIOUSLY be a massive headache. However, once Napoléon starts lumping those republics into kingdoms (Italy, Naples, Etruria for Italy; Switzerland as a single entity instead of a bunch of cantons) its likely to streamline things.

A headache might be the Confederation of the Rhine/Holy Roman Empire. Would they compete as ONE team (German? Rhenish?)? Or as individual teams (Bavaria, Westphalia, Württemberg, Saxony, Baden etc).

 

[Pesterfield]

Or as individual teams (Bavaria, Westphalia, Württemberg, Saxony, Baden etc).

If they go this way could it help to increase those places local nationalism instead of a German identity?

 

[King_Arthur]

This is what I imagine the first few Games will look like.

1796 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running (New), Horse Racing (New), Chariot Racing (New)
Competitors - France

1797 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing
Competitors - France

1798 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing
Competitors - France

1800 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling (New), Boxing (New)
Competitors - France

1802 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing
Competitors - France

1804 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, Soule (New), Fencing (New), Jeu de Paume (New)
Competitors - France, Batavia, Ligurian Republic, Erturia, Spain, Switzerland, Italian Republic

1806 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, Soule, Fencing, Jeu de Paume, Parachuting (New), Hot Air Balloon Racing (New)
Competitors - France, Erturia, Spain, Switzerland, Italian Republic, Naples, Holland, Confederation of the Rhine, Italy

1808 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, Soule, Fencing, Jeu de Paume, Parachuting, Hot Air Balloon Racing, Shooting (New)
Competitors - France, Switzerland, Italy, Naples, Holland, Confederation of the Rhine, Prussia, Denmark-Norway, Tuscany

1810 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, Soule, Fencing, Jeu de Paume, Parachuting, Hot Air Balloon Racing, Shooting, Fencing (New)
Competitors - France, Switzerland, Italy, Naples, Holland, Confederation of the Rhine, Prussia, Denmark-Norway, Tuscany, Warsaw, Sweden

1814 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Shooting, Fencing, Boxing, Wrestling
Competitors - France, Russia, Austria, Prussia

1818 - Aix-la-Chappelle, Prussia
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Shooting, Fencing, Boxing, Wrestling, La Soule, Jeu de Paume
Competitors - France, Russia, Prussia, Austria, United Kingdom

1822 - Olympia, Greece
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Shooting, Fencing, Boxing, Wrestling, La Soule, Jeu de Paume, Chariot Racing
Competitors - France, Russia, Prussia, Austria, United Kingdom, Greece, Two Sicilies, Sardinia-Piedmont, Bavaria

 

[Gokbay]

This is what I imagine the first few Games will look like.

1796 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running (New), Horse Racing (New), Chariot Racing (New)
Competitors - France

1797 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing
Competitors - France

1798 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing
Competitors - France

1800 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling (New), Boxing (New)
Competitors - France

1802 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing
Competitors - France

1804 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, Soule (New), Fencing (New), Jeu de Paume (New)
Competitors - France, Batavia, Ligurian Republic, Erturia, Spain, Switzerland, Italian Republic

1806 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, Soule, Fencing, Jeu de Paume, Parachuting (New), Hot Air Balloon Racing (New)
Competitors - France, Erturia, Spain, Switzerland, Italian Republic, Naples, Holland, Confederation of the Rhine, Italy

1808 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, Soule, Fencing, Jeu de Paume, Parachuting, Hot Air Balloon Racing, Shooting (New)
Competitors - France, Switzerland, Italy, Naples, Holland, Confederation of the Rhine, Prussia, Denmark-Norway, Tuscany

1810 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Chariot Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, Soule, Fencing, Jeu de Paume, Parachuting, Hot Air Balloon Racing, Shooting, Fencing (New)
Competitors - France, Switzerland, Italy, Naples, Holland, Confederation of the Rhine, Prussia, Denmark-Norway, Tuscany, Warsaw, Sweden

1814 - Paris, France (Champ de Mars)
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Shooting, Fencing, Boxing, Wrestling
Competitors - France, Russia, Austria, Prussia

1818 - Aix-la-Chappelle, Prussia
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Shooting, Fencing, Boxing, Wrestling, La Soule, Jeu de Paume
Competitors - France, Russia, Prussia, Austria, United Kingdom

1822 - Olympia, Greece
Sports - Running, Horse Racing, Shooting, Fencing, Boxing, Wrestling, La Soule, Jeu de Paume, Chariot Racing
Competitors - France, Russia, Prussia, Austria, United Kingdom, Greece, Two Sicilies, Sardinia-Piedmont, Bavaria

While there was a Greece in 1822 I am pretty sure it was a mostly unrecognised revolutionary provisional government. I think an Olympiad in Greece makes more sense in 1830s.

 

[King_Arthur]

Oh sorry I got mixed up with when Greece got full independence. Yeah, you're right.