In honor of the holiday, what if the Wampanoag Native Americans hadn't helped the Pilgrims survive at Plymouth Plantation in 1621, and they had starved instead? What would history be like then?
WI No Thanksgiving?
- Thread starter Thespitron 6000
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Howard Nelson
Banned
A much better world. No Puritan colonies in New England, and thus no mass English migration to the Americas. This means no USA and no imperialist hyperpower which is trying to conquer or dominate all the world. Instead the Native Americans might with French help build a cooperative society based on the Iroquois Confederacy and resist European imperialists.
Whoa someone is angry at the U.S.A. I don't think the butterflies of the Puritans dieing would allow the Iroquois to resist European Colonization. So.....yeah. Still kind of the same world, England is just a little slower to colonize the New World.Howard Nelson
Banned
A difference of say twenty years could very well be critical. During that time the French may have a greater presence in that area while the Native American populations build an immunity to the diseases that (literally) plagued them.
I agree what the U.S did too the indians is almost unforgivaeble but if their is a slow colinization of North america... what will happen technologically for the north americans indians?
Howard Nelson
Banned
They'll adopt some technology especially firearms and possibly horses (although their use in the Eastern woods would be limited).
Anti-American and "Noble Savage" silliness alert.
Firstly, Massachusetts Bay would still be settled. Secondly, the English would still settle in Virginia and other places.
Howard Nelson
Banned
Virginia might still be settled yes but they will not be able to expand as far north and with English settlement limited not be able to establish dominance in eastern North America. In addition if Massachusetts Bay is settled by say the French they will not mass colonize it like the English did. After all most Native American tribes cooperated with the French who were here for furs rather the English who came here to stay.
Massachusetts Bay was being settled at roughly the same time, with much greater numbers, and much greater organization.
The failure of Plymouth Plantation will not affect Massachusetts Bay.
And Virginia was settled before the north was, so whether it "might" be settled or not is not a good question to ask.
Snake Featherston
Banned
Eventually another proprietary colony is set up in Massachusetts and things assume a slightly different but broadly recognizable course. The proto-USA already *had* settlements then in what's now Virginia.
Snake Featherston
Banned
North American geography and the absence of nationalism at that point prohibit the emergence of an Amerindian Prussia analogue which would be their best shot at holding off the USA (heavily militarized armies with guns and artillery). If an Amerindian state emerges it has to be south of the Rio Grande, as north of it the sheer size of North America is prohibitive for pan-Indigenous alliances. It can be hard in such cases to convince the Illini, Nakota, Creek Confederacy, and Kansa that they all have a singular common interest as much as it was to form an alliance against say, Napoleon or Hitler.
David S Poepoe
Banned
At the worst this Thursday would be just another day of work and there would be no such concept in marketing as 'Black Friday'.
Regarding the Native Americans, they be bulldozed under as they were historically - at least those on the East Coast and east of the Mississippi. Those west and on the Plains may have things differently.
Regarding the Native Americans, they be bulldozed under as they were historically - at least those on the East Coast and east of the Mississippi. Those west and on the Plains may have things differently.
There might be a different harvest festival holiday-perhaps Halloween becomes less monster-y and focusses more on eating.
Americans wouldn't be able to call fundies and other strict people "puritans"
No, they'd still be 'puritans.' American politicians of the 19th century liked to borrow English political designations when needed. For example, the Whig Party of the US invoked the English Whigs, who resisted a King, in order to negatively paint Andrew Jackson. Therefore, it's possible that American preachers and politicians can invoke the old English puritans.
In any event, there'd still be religious Puritan settlements in the New World. And even if the Pilgrims of Plymouth Colony are wiped out, there may be another settlement on the exact same place, if the Indian tribe that wiped them out is weakened later. But perhaps these Puritans would settle elsewhere, like at the Hudson River, or in Connecticut, or Long Island, or New Jersey, and those would be the centers of puritan thought and standard "New England" culture ITTL.
By say...those two words are right up there with ASBs and hand waviums. Those words imply that you're pulling a what if out of a hat with no base of fact. Anyway, From what I remember with the French colonization of the New England area of North America, they were no better, sometimes even worst off than the British. They're first colonization of South Carolina in 1562 was short lived due to severe indian attacks, they're second in colonization in 1564 was destroyed by the Spanish from St. Augustine, Sable Island in Nova Scotia was colonized as a prison colony in 1599 but also failed and lastly the French attempted a colony in Maine in 1604 but failed due to illness.
So based off of that timeline, they're colonization records of North America weren't even remotely decent until the 1680s, 60 years after the Pilgrims; therefore the British would have plenty of time to rebuild and re-establish hold in the Massachusetts since they had a decent grasp in the Virginia area.
The long term implications of no Pilgrims, if I had to theorize would be no holiday on the last Thursday of November and perhaps a slightly more socially liberal United States because we wouldn't have a puritanical background.
If the OP happens, there'd still be a Thanksgiving... just with different historical referents (if any is even needed). Thanksgiving the holiday has very little to do with Plymouth, as those who recall this thread may remember.
If starvation seems likely and no friendly contact with the Wampanoags had been made, the colony might've headed home on Mayflower when it left in April; an attempt to settle Maine back in 1607 had been abandoned after one winter as well, so it's not inconceivable. Massachusetts Bay probably still gets settled; history proceeds on broadly similar lines to OTL.
If starvation seems likely and no friendly contact with the Wampanoags had been made, the colony might've headed home on Mayflower when it left in April; an attempt to settle Maine back in 1607 had been abandoned after one winter as well, so it's not inconceivable. Massachusetts Bay probably still gets settled; history proceeds on broadly similar lines to OTL.