WI no Market Garden?

[Edward IX]

Basically what the tin says. What would have happened if there had not happened? I don't think it was winnable as planned and was a "gift" to Monty's vanity (feel free to correct me).

I mean true, they didn't know that the 2nd SS was refitting in the area and the Airborne was way beyond reasonable logistics lines.

But what if there was no Market Garden? I admit I think the Airborne concept didn't work for any side in WWII, feel free to correct me. I think maybe the only exception might be the German Fallschirmjager and glider assualt in Belgium and grabbing Mussolini.

Would there have been a better scenario around that time for a Airborne assualt? Or a better use of the tanks and 101st and Red Legs? Maybe behind the Sigfried line (that's my idea for a TL)? Was the logistical situation dictating they had to do something like that?

 

[SsgtC]

I have to argue with that that Airborne didn't work. It worked extremely well in Normandy where the Airborne captured and held key areas (bridges and cross roads mostly) that prevented German reinforcements from reaching the beaches. It also worked well in Sicily and Italy. It failed in Market Garden because XXX Corps was unable to advance fast enough to relieve them (through no fault of their own, Monty was an idiot to even suggest it and Eisenhower an even bigger one for approving it).

If it hadn't gone ahead? Patton's 3rd Army would likely have gotten priority and attacked straight into the teeth of the German defenses. IIRC, that's what they were expecting would happen. And at that point, that fight could have gone either way. Though I do think it will have ripped the heart out of Patton's army.

On a much smaller note, my grandfather wouldn't have picked up his 3rd Purple Heart if MG hadn't gone ahead.

 

[corditeman]

No Market Garden?

Except for the ref to the Airborne and Monty, I'd suggest more allotments and 'Digging for Victory', to call a spade a garden fork.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

In the short run a bit more fuel to 12th AG & they are a bit further along the road to the Rhine. In the spring 21 AG has to cross more river before breaking out onto the north German plain.

The big benefit can be, & no guarantee, is if Monty undistracted by this gamble goes for the more pedestrian priority of opening the Scheldt water way to Antwerp. That may still require priority of fuel to the 21 AG, but getting Antwerp open 22 October, or even 8 November is a big gain.

 

[Edward IX]

I have to argue with that that Airborne didn't work. It worked extremely well in Normandy where the Airborne captured and held key areas (bridges and cross roads mostly) that prevented German reinforcements from reaching the beaches. It also worked well in Sicily and Italy. It failed in Market Garden because XXX Corps was unable to advance fast enough to relieve them (through no fault of their own, Monty was an idiot to even suggest it and Eisenhower an even bigger one for approving it).

If it hadn't gone ahead? Patton's 3rd Army would likely have gotten priority and attacked straight into the teeth of the German defenses. IIRC, that's what they were expecting would happen. And at that point, that fight could have gone either way. Though I do think it will have ripped the heart out of Patton's army.

On a much smaller note, my grandfather wouldn't have picked up his 3rd Purple Heart if MG hadn't gone ahead.

Similar my Grandfather was in the 101st. He got wounded D+3 and got back in time to jump for Market Garden. I look at Normandy as a Airborne got totally misdropped. The Paratroopers succeed in spite of everything.

I always respect your Military opinions. So, I am happy to consider looking at it. I just think a awful lot of resources for little effect. Do you think that they could have taken a deep water Port? Say Cherbourg?

 

[SsgtC]

Similar my Grandfather was in the 101st. He got wounded D+3 and got back in time to jump for Market Garden. I look at Normandy as a Airborne got totally misdropped. The Paratroopers succeed in spite of everything.

I always respect your Military opinions. So, I am happy to consider looking at it. I just think a awful lot of resources for little effect. Do you think that they could have taken a deep water Port? Say Cherbourg?

Mine was 82nd. Got his first PH in Sicily. His second on D+1 and his third at Nijmegen. The reason I don't consider it a failed doctrine is that it worked. The officers and NCOs in the Airborne all knew the mission so they were able to complete their objectives despite the misdrops. They overcame the obstacles. Then they held on until they were relieved.

I'm not sure about Cherbourg. My gut says no. But I'm not really sure what the Germans were holding it with. At a WAG, I would have to assume that it was strong enough to fight off unsupported light infantry. I can't see the Germans leaving such an obvious target like Cherbourg undefended or lightly held.