WI: No Japanese-American Internment

[fscott]

The internment was not total for the duration of the war. Release was possible to states away from the Pacific coast, when there were sponsors and the promise of work or school. Thousands left the camps every year through such releases, tens of thousands by the end of the war. So there was frequent contact between white and Japanese Americans; there were no such incidents of lynchings as you suggest. Those fears are far overblown.

I find it odd that after the war their seized assets, which was quite a large amount. It was racist and greed not national safety.

 

[mlp]

BS. As I stated above, tens of thousands of Japanese Americans were released during the war. From a high of over 110,000 in May 1942, by January 1944 there were 92,000 remaining in camps, reduced further to 82,000 by June of that year. So there were tens of thousands of Japanese Americans interacting with white Americans during the height of the war. There were no race riots or lynchings. Your speculations do not stand up against historical facts.

I know you aren't lying. But I'd like to see some sources on the matter.
Because for what I read here it didn't sound like they were released en masse before December 1944, and during the internment only a few released for student exchange programmes-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans

It blows the mind that people think the situation of Japanese Americans would be worse had they not been interned.

Because the United States in the 1940s was a beautiful place where there existed no racism and everybody was tolerant and happy? I highly question everyone's assumption here that somehow Americans during the time aren't as racist as we can expect them to be - that is, quite a lot.

Japanese-American internment is an dis-comforting subject for Americans who like to view their country as an unquestionable good guy in WWII. Anything to rationalize a racist policy as being "oh but it could've been worse for them" may thus seem appealing.

Did you just assume I'm an American?

 

[Tripledot]

Because the United States in the 1940s was a beautiful place where there existed no racism and everybody was tolerant and happy? I highly question everyone's assumption here that somehow Americans during the time aren't as racist as we can expect them to be - that is, quite a lot.

I feel it's highly unlikely for Japanese Americans to b come terrorists if not interned. Japanese citizens of the United States did not resist getting put in internment camps and getting their property seized by using violence. I don't think that would change if they weren't interned.

 

[mlp]

I feel it's highly unlikely for Japanese Americans to b come terrorists if not interned. Japanese citizens of the United States did not resist getting put in internment camps and getting their property seized by using violence. I don't think that would change if they weren't interned.

I have no doubt that Japanese-Americans, like any other with American citizenship, are very loyal to the flag and the constitution, etc. But the fact remains that if they were left amidst Americans who were receiving anti-Japanese propaganda every hour and every day there exists high possibility they'll be severely persecuted.
And the Japanese-American reaction to that as a whole is an open question.
Sure, this wasn't the reason authorities interned them. But I find the argument that somehow this fact undermines mine very questionable.

 

[frustrated progressive]

I'm sorry, what? The Soviet Union encouraging a piece of the United States to secede would just lead to a war -- or the US would basically go "fine, fuck you" and start actively backing anti-Communists in Eastern Europe, where they kept themselves out mostly. Eisenhower would actively back the Hungarian revolution in 1956, the Czechoslovak one in 1968, he'd probably support Tito against the USSR, et al. -- It'd be a full on race to see how they can implode the USSR; and the US would win, by the way. The Russians hadn't a chance in hell.

The U.S. would then basically find every way to fuck with the Russians, and outright support secessionism (see: Baltic States).

That's assuming the Americans didn't just sink any Russian ship or blow any Russian plane out of the sky that goes anywhere near Hawai'i.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[mlp]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Communist Hawaii for Free Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia seems like a sweet deal to me.

 

[Avrorrange]

If there wasn't riots right after pearl habor there wasn't going to be riots it's like if the U.S. desided to intern Arab Americans in 2004. That excuse that it was for the safety of the Japanese Americans looks thin especially since it was never the reasoning of the politicians who inacted interment.

Let's say the US is a lot more civilised in 2004 than they were in 1942.

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

As some posters have already noted, I find it difficult to believe that internment won't happen..

Likewise, even if they aren't in the internment camps, they're still going to face widespread discrimination and issues.

Whether or not the Katonks volunteer in the same droves that the Japanese in Hawaii is abit up in the air.
If the VVV still forms, it might inspire similar actions from the mainland Japanese, but there always seemed to be a bit of a divide between the Japanese in Hawaii and the Japanese on the Mainland.

If so, in a historical twist the Hawaii Democratic Revolution of 1954 may turn violent and result in independent Hawaii.
Do not forget, out of 6 principal leaders of revolution of 1954, 3 were of Japanese ancestry. With more US-living citizens sent to European front, both number of veteran Japanese ancestry survivors and their resentment of the "cannon fodder" tactics of US leadership will drastically increase (casualties among US Japanese in Europe were 93%). I can imagine Daniel Inouye declaring independence of Hawaii or some of Hawaii islands (with some Soviet assistance) in ~1958. As soon as Sovier R-7 Semyorka ICBM development is complete in 1957, the Pacific coast is in range of fire from Hawaii. Look on this like on the Pacific version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I agree what the chances of pro-communist uprising on Hawaii would be slim from the military standpoint. Well, if i would be a Daniel Inoue in such situation..i will write a following plan.

1) Request independent Hawaiian legislature from Congress to amend racist and anti-communist legislation
2) Form parallel self-governance bodies, boycotting official ones if (1) has failed
3) Blockade Pearl Harbour and other USMC bases by peaceful civilian pickets if interference to (2) is too oppressive
4) Assassinate anti-communistic/racist US officials who have leaked through (3), and form self-defence militias
5) Declare Hawaiian mainland a demilitarized zone if bad practices are still enforced despite (3) and (4)
6) Smuggle some ICBM from Soviet Union to impose a balance of fear, if possible from social point (need over 90% local community support to keep secret long enough)
7) De-militarise Hawaii and took as much autonomy as necessary to prevent a recurrence of racial or anti-communist purges (if US will not dare to start a nuclear conflict)

You can see what Hawaiian independence is not the target, but it may become an outcome if US conflict reconciliation tactics will fail badly and repeatedly (7 times at least) due excess civilian-targeted violence. Exactly a worst case scenario for the US.
Of course, i do not propose the Hawaiian militia have to capture any US military base. It is a losing proposition even for blood-thirsty idiot like me.

Mate, you don't know shit about anything in Hawaii.

Communist Hawaii for Free Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia seems like a sweet deal to me.

Not for me.

 

[Edward_Elric]

Did you just assume I'm an American?

No, my post was not referring to your statements.

As for "Communist Hawaii for Free Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia"? Maybe not. While it'd certainly help the Soviets with their power projection in the Pacific, I'd still expect the USSR to be a land-based power first and foremost, and remain outmatched at sea by the US Navy.

 

[mlp]

Not for me.

I was attempting to be tongue-in-cheek, actually. Of course loss of Eastern Europe for a small island doesn't really count.

No, my post was not referring to your statements.

No. But the argument "it could've been worse for them" was exactly the one I have been consistently making, so my response holds. I don't need to be an American to believe Japanese internment may have been a necessity for the time.

As for "Communist Hawaii for Free Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia"? Maybe not. While it'd certainly help the Soviets with their power projection in the Pacific, I'd still expect the USSR to be a land-based power first and foremost, and remain outmatched at sea by the US Navy.

see above.

 

[ChucK Y]

I know you aren't lying. But I'd like to see some sources on the matter.
Because for what I read here it didn't sound like they were released en masse before December 1944, and during the internment only a few released for student exchange programmes-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans

Here is the relevant page from one of the War Relocation Authority's semi-annual reports:
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/Japanese-American_Internment_Camp_Population_Study

Release from the camps wasn't that uncommon. I had an aunt and uncle that were released to work in the apple harvest in western Washington in 1943.

 

[mlp]

Here is the relevant page from one of the War Relocation Authority's semi-annual reports:
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/Japanese-American_Internment_Camp_Population_Study

Release from the camps wasn't that uncommon. I had an aunt and uncle that were released to work in the apple harvest in western Washington in 1943.

Some seem to be decreasing while others seem to be increasing. Maybe they were moved around?
Also, were your aunt and uncle originally apple farmers or were they sent there? Because I think what I'd believe as being 'sent back' is going back home or something similar.

 

[ChucK Y]

Here is a quote from a document produced by the War Relocation Authority in May 1943:

http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist10/relocbook.html

[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]The job of this agency, briefly, is to assist in the relocation of any persons who may be required by the Army to move from their homes in the interest of military security. So far, the work of the WRA has been concerned almost exclusively with people of Japanese descent who formerly lived close to the Pacific rim of the country.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]At first, plans were made by the Western Defense Command and the WRA to build accomodations only for a portion of the 110,000 evacuated people. A considerable percentage of them, it was hoped, would move out of the restricted area and resettle inland on their own initiative. During March of 1942, some 8,000 actually did move, but the great majority were held back by limited resources, general uncertainty, and mounting signs of community hostility in the intermountain region. By the latter part of March, it had become apparent that such a large-scale exodus could be handled effectively on a planned and systematic basis. Accordingly, all further voluntary evacuation was halted by the Western Defense Command on March 29 and plans were initiated by the WRA for establishing relocation centers with sufficient capacity and facilities to handle the entire evacuated population for as long as might be necessary.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]The relocation centers, however, are NOT and ever were intended to be internment camps or places of confinement. They were established for two primary purposes: (1) To provide communities where evacuees might live and contribute, through their work, to their own support pending their gradual reabsorption into private employment and normal American life; and (2) to serve as wartime homes for those evacuees who might be unable or unfit to relocate in ordinary American communities. Under regulations adopted in September of 1942, the War Relocation Authority is now working toward a steady depopulation of the centers by urging all able-bodied residents with good records of behavior to reenter private employment in agriculture or industry.[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[mlp]

Here is a quote from a document produced by the War Relocation Authority in May 1943:

http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist10/relocbook.html

So they voluntarily moved inland where there are generally lesser people? I think that's what explains the decrease in population from various relocation centres, right?

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Why is someone talking about Hawaii independence in a no Japanese internment scenario?

 

[ChucK Y]

Some seem to be decreasing while others seem to be increasing. Maybe they were moved around?
Also, were your aunt and uncle originally apple farmers or were they sent there? Because I think what I'd believe as being 'sent back' is going back home or something similar.

People were moved around mainly to separate and congregate the "no-no's" who refused to sign the loyalty oath, seeing it as an insult to their citizenship or fearing it would be used against them.

My aunt and uncle were farmers before the war; I know my grandparents on that side had an orchard in Loomis, east of Sacramento. As I understand it, a labor contractor advertised for workers in the camp, and they applied for the jobs.

 

[ChucK Y]

So they voluntarily moved inland where there are generally lesser people? I think that's what explains the decrease in population from various relocation centres, right?

They were released to where they had job offers; this would not correlate very well to places with low populations. The locations were not necessarily inland, they could be on the Atlantic or Gulf coasts. The WRA offices were scattered around the country, as seen in the quote below.

Here is a continuation of the quote from 1943:

[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]The procedures are relatively simple. At a number of key cities throughout the interior of the country, the WRA has field employees known as relocation officers and relocation supervisors. These men, working in close collaboration with local volunteer committees of interested citizens and with the United States Employment Service, seek out employment opportunities for evacuees in their respective areas and channel such information to the relocation centers where an effort is made to match up the jobs with the most likely evacuee candidates. Direct negotiations are then started between the employer and the potential employee and final arrangements are made ordinarily by mail.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]Before any evacuee is permitted to leave a relocation center for the purpose of taking a job or establishing normal residence, however, certain requirements must be met:[/SIZE][/FONT]

1. [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]A careful check is made of the evacuee's behavior record at the relocation center and of other information in the hands of the WRA. In all questionable cases, any information in the possession of the federal investigative agencies is requested and studied. If there is any evidence from any source that the evacuee might endanger the security of the Nation, permission for indefinite leave is denied.[/SIZE][/FONT]
2. [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]There must be reasonable assurance from responsible officials or citizens regarding local sentiment in the community where the evacuee plans to settle. If community sentiment appears so hostile to all persons of Japanese descent that the presence of the evacuee seems likely to cause trouble, the evacuee is so advised and discouraged from relocating in that particular area.[/SIZE][/FONT]
3. [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]Indefinite leave is granted only to evacuees who have a definite place to go and some means of support.[/SIZE][/FONT]
4. [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]Each evacuee going out on indefinite leave must agree to keep the WRA informed of any change of job or address.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]The primary purpose of this program is to restore as many of the evacuees as possible to productive life in normal American communities.

[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]The specific procedures being followed have been approved by the Department of Justice as sound from the standpoint of national security and have been endorsed by the War Manpower Commission as a contribution to national manpower needs. As the program moves forward, the costs of maintenance of the relocation centers will be steadily reduced.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Trebuchet MS,Trebuchet,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans][SIZE=-1]Persons interested in employing evacuees from relocations centers for any sort of work should communicate with the nearest relocation supervisor of the WRA. The addresses and names of these supervisors are:[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[mlp]

People were moved around mainly to separate and congregate the "no-no's" who refused to sign the loyalty oath, seeing it as an insult to their citizenship or fearing it would be used against them.

My aunt and uncle were farmers before the war; I know my grandparents on that side had an orchard in Loomis, east of Sacramento. As I understand it, a labor contractor advertised for workers in the camp, and they applied for the jobs.

Were they ever able to return to their homes during the war?

They were released to where they had job offers; this would not correlate very well to places with low populations. The locations were not necessarily inland, they could be on the Atlantic or Gulf coasts. The WRA offices were scattered around the country, as seen in the quote below.

Here is a continuation of the quote from 1943:

According to what I see it seems to be more a "Of Mice and Men" situation where the Japanese-Americans are working basic labour between farms, which can be a different environment from suburbs or urban areas.

Furthermore I don't think any of us would deny the United States was still a very racist place back then, added with their historical persecution of those with Chinese or African descent; added to the anti-Japanese sentiment, I continue to have no doubt that if, if Japanese-Americans were fully allowed to go back to their homes and workplaces, the conflict between Japanese-Americans and others would increase dramatically.
I further have no reason to doubt the relocation centres were administered and run partly by very well-meaning individuals. This however merely seems a divergence of the social conditions of the time.

 

[vega]

I'm no moderator, but since I did create this thread, it would be nice to focus on the general subject at hand. Not Soviet backed Hawaiian independence.

I think the impact that it might have on the civil rights movement is limited, though. And the segregated WWII units would still be segregated, just like the black ones were. This might be one of the rare cases where a big even in history has little butterflies if it does not happen, you might see some more Japanese-American millionaires, though.

 

[Tripledot]

I'm no moderator, but since I did create this thread, it would be nice to focus on the general subject at hand. Not Soviet backed Hawaiian independence.

I think the impact that it might have on the civil rights movement is limited, though. And the segregated WWII units would still be segregated, just like the black ones were. This might be one of the rare cases where a big even in history has little butterflies if it does not happen, you might see some more Japanese-American millionaires, though.

Interesting to note, Japanese-Americans actually served in the military, though only in the European theatre.