WI: No Japanese-American Internment

[vega]

I think this got a thread or two before, but it is really a good topic to discuss the implications of.

What if the country followed the model of Hawaii, in no interning, but rather "keeping an eye on" the community?

Would the civil rights movement be set back, would it produce large butterflies, other than a more prosperous post war Japanese diaspora, and the US not looking like a big bad guy?

 

[Sasalele]

I think this got a thread or two before, but it is really a good topic to discuss the implications of.

What if the country followed the model of Hawaii, in no interning, but rather "keeping an eye on" the community?

Would the civil rights movement be set back, would it produce large butterflies, other than a more prosperous post war Japanese diaspora, and the US not looking like a big bad guy?

I think that we might see race riots directed against Japanese-Americans since they aren't closed off to society. Look to WWI, and the Anti-German sentiment, and apply to WWII.

 

[trurle]

I think that we might see race riots directed against Japanese-Americans since they aren't closed off to society. Look to WWI, and the Anti-German sentiment, and apply to WWII.

If so, in a historical twist the Hawaii Democratic Revolution of 1954 may turn violent and result in independent Hawaii.
Do not forget, out of 6 principal leaders of revolution of 1954, 3 were of Japanese ancestry. With more US-living citizens sent to European front, both number of veteran Japanese ancestry survivors and their resentment of the "cannon fodder" tactics of US leadership will drastically increase (casualties among US Japanese in Europe were 93%). I can imagine Daniel Inouye declaring independence of Hawaii or some of Hawaii islands (with some Soviet assistance) in ~1958. As soon as Sovier R-7 Semyorka ICBM development is complete in 1957, the Pacific coast is in range of fire from Hawaii. Look on this like on the Pacific version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

[mlp]

Considering how high anti-Japanese sentiment ran during the Pacific War, IMO it's entirely possible some Japanese go rogue due to severe persecution and become "terrorists".

 

[frustrated progressive]

If so, in a historical twist the Hawaii Democratic Revolution of 1954 may turn violent and result in independent Hawaii.
Do not forget, out of 6 principal leaders of revolution of 1954, 3 were of Japanese ancestry. With more US-living citizens sent to European front, both number of veteran Japanese ancestry survivors and their resentment of the "cannon fodder" tactics of US leadership will drastically increase (casualties among US Japanese in Europe were 93%). I can imagine Daniel Inouye declaring independence of Hawaii or some of Hawaii islands (with some Soviet assistance) in ~1958. As soon as Sovier R-7 Semyorka ICBM development is complete in 1957, the Pacific coast is in range of fire from Hawaii. Look on this like on the Pacific version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

No. Hell no. The US would be so far away from allowing this that it's barely in the realm of possible thought, much less actual plans. Besides, the Soviets would never do this, it wouldn't work, there are far better ways to oppose America, and it would probably lead to war.

 

[Lateknight]

If so, in a historical twist the Hawaii Democratic Revolution of 1954 may turn violent and result in independent Hawaii.
Do not forget, out of 6 principal leaders of revolution of 1954, 3 were of Japanese ancestry. With more US-living citizens sent to European front, both number of veteran Japanese ancestry survivors and their resentment of the "cannon fodder" tactics of US leadership will drastically increase (casualties among US Japanese in Europe were 93%). I can imagine Daniel Inouye declaring independence of Hawaii or some of Hawaii islands (with some Soviet assistance) in ~1958. As soon as Sovier R-7 Semyorka ICBM development is complete in 1957, the Pacific coast is in range of fire from Hawaii. Look on this like on the Pacific version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

No if the Soviet Union tried to help a nonviolent Union based movement in any way all it do is make the union toxic to support as well as create a caus belli for a war that the soviets couldn't win.

 

[trurle]

No if the Soviet Union tried to help a nonviolent Union based movement in any way all it do is make the union toxic to support as well as create a caus belli for a war that the soviets couldn't win.

Who say Democratic Union guys are going to be non-violent? Violence results in more violence, and killing US-Japanese citizens during WWII will backfire as violent Hawaian revolution

Also, neither US can win. Nuclear exchange is the losing proposition for both sides. The threat of nuclear strike have hold the US arms on Cuba, why not on Hawaii?

Drawing exact historical parallels, US will retain naval base of Pearl Harbor (Guantánamo on Cuba) and conflict got frozen for few decades if nuclear exchange threat is involved.

Of course, i agree this is a worst-case scenario. US leaders had usually enough flexibility to prevent large-scale social unrest in 20th century. Utuado Uprising was was the arguably largest-scale secession attempt (Puerto Rico, 1950), but it was still minor in scale.

 

[mlp]

Who say Democratic Union guys are going to be non-violent? Violence results in more violence, and killing US-Japanese citizens during WWII will backfire as violent Hawaian revolution

Also, neither US can win. Nuclear exchange is the losing proposition for both sides. The threat of nuclear strike have hold the US arms on Cuba, why not on Hawaii?

Drawing exact historical parallels, US will retain naval base of Pearl Harbor (Guantánamo on Cuba) and conflict got frozen for few decades if nuclear exchange threat is involved.

Of course, i agree this is a worst-case scenario. US leaders had usually enough flexibility to prevent large-scale social unrest in 20th century. Utuado Uprising was was the arguably largest-scale secession attempt (Puerto Rico, 1950), but it was still minor in scale.

If Pearl Harbour isn't a major US naval base, then the Communist revolution can succeed.
Of course, it'd be terrible irony if Hawaii voted to join Japan...

 

[Meadow]

Perhaps a poor taste question, but is there any evidence that the internment camps actually 'worked'? Were any Japanese-sympathising Japanese-Americans successfully kept from carrying out sabotage etc? I guess it's hard to know, because they didn't have the chance IOTL.

Not that this would justify that camps as in OTL, of course. But in an ATL without them, a few butterflies might kick off if US industrial production is disrupted in a tiny way. See Turtledove's thing where a small raid by black saboteurs in TL-191 kills a young Jimmy Carter - a major figure might get killed, or equally an unknown from our history might become a hero for stopping Japanese-American 'terrorism', and one day become President.

 

[Paul V McNutt]

I does not effect the civil rights movement. Which was primarily about the plight of African Americans. Keeping those of Japanese descent free does not help them.

 

[mlp]

Perhaps a poor taste question, but is there any evidence that the internment camps actually 'worked'? Were any Japanese-sympathising Japanese-Americans successfully kept from carrying out sabotage etc? I guess it's hard to know, because they didn't have the chance IOTL.

Not that this would justify that camps as in OTL, of course. But in an ATL without them, a few butterflies might kick off if US industrial production is disrupted in a tiny way. See Turtledove's thing where a small raid by black saboteurs in TL-191 kills a young Jimmy Carter - a major figure might get killed, or equally an unknown from our history might become a hero for stopping Japanese-American 'terrorism', and one day become President.

I think sabotage by Japanese-Americans would be inevitable. Anti-Japanese sentiment, as said before, ran very high during the entirety of the war; no way wouldn't there be everyday hostility of Americans against those of Japanese descent.

 

[ChucK Y]

I think that we might see race riots directed against Japanese-Americans since they aren't closed off to society. Look to WWI, and the Anti-German sentiment, and apply to WWII.

No. The Japanese Americans were not sent to the relocation camps until May 1942. In the time between Pearl Harbor and then, there were no race riots directed against them. If there were none in the period of highest anger and paranoia, why would there be any later on?

 

[ChucK Y]

If so, in a historical twist the Hawaii Democratic Revolution of 1954 may turn violent and result in independent Hawaii.
Do not forget, out of 6 principal leaders of revolution of 1954, 3 were of Japanese ancestry. With more US-living citizens sent to European front, both number of veteran Japanese ancestry survivors and their resentment of the "cannon fodder" tactics of US leadership will drastically increase (casualties among US Japanese in Europe were 93%). I can imagine Daniel Inouye declaring independence of Hawaii or some of Hawaii islands (with some Soviet assistance) in ~1958. As soon as Sovier R-7 Semyorka ICBM development is complete in 1957, the Pacific coast is in range of fire from Hawaii. Look on this like on the Pacific version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The Japanese-American veterans regarded their service during the war as the ultimate demonstration of their loyalty to the US. They wanted to be accepted as loyal Americans, and would not turn that on its head to declare independence from the US.

 

[mlp]

The Japanese-American veterans regarded their service during the war as the ultimate demonstration of their loyalty to the US. They wanted to be accepted as loyal Americans, and would not turn that on its head to declare independence from the US.

Aren't they all volunteers? Of course they'll be loyal.

 

[ChucK Y]

Perhaps a poor taste question, but is there any evidence that the internment camps actually 'worked'? Were any Japanese-sympathising Japanese-Americans successfully kept from carrying out sabotage etc? I guess it's hard to know, because they didn't have the chance IOTL.

Not that this would justify that camps as in OTL, of course. But in an ATL without them, a few butterflies might kick off if US industrial production is disrupted in a tiny way. See Turtledove's thing where a small raid by black saboteurs in TL-191 kills a young Jimmy Carter - a major figure might get killed, or equally an unknown from our history might become a hero for stopping Japanese-American 'terrorism', and one day become President.

No, there was never any evidence that the Japanese Americans would sabotage or work in any way against the US. It would make exactly as much sense to put you into an internment camp because you couldn't prove that you wouldn't engage in sabotage. Logically, it is impossible to prove a negative.

 

[ChucK Y]

I think sabotage by Japanese-Americans would be inevitable. Anti-Japanese sentiment, as said before, ran very high during the entirety of the war; no way wouldn't there be everyday hostility of Americans against those of Japanese descent.

No. The historical situation provides a controlled experiment. In Hawaii, the Japanese-American population remained free, and committed zero acts of sabotage. In the continental US, the Japanese-American population were put into relocation camps, from which it was common to receive release to live and work in parts of the US away from the Pacific coast. That population committed zero acts of sabotage. The evidence is that the Japanese-Americans would not commit sabotage.

 

[mlp]

No, there was never any evidence that the Japanese Americans would sabotage or work in any way against the US. It would make exactly as much sense to put you into an internment camp because you couldn't prove that you wouldn't engage in sabotage. Logically, it is impossible to prove a negative.

Japanese-Americans at that time were either first- or second-generation immigrants. They had close contact with their relatives back home. Your example is deeply flawed.

 

[mlp]

No. The historical situation provides a controlled experiment. In Hawaii, the Japanese-American population remained free, and committed zero acts of sabotage. In the continental US, the Japanese-American population were put into relocation camps, from which it was common to receive release to live and work in parts of the US away from the Pacific coast. That population committed zero acts of sabotage. The evidence is that the Japanese-Americans would not commit sabotage.

Japanese community leaders were arrested. And let's not forget that one time Japanese pilots who ended up in Hawaii were helped by Japanese-Americans there.

 

[Lateknight]

Japanese community leaders were arrested. And let's not forget that one time Japanese pilots who ended up in Hawaii were helped by Japanese-Americans there.

That was one time I think one case by case basis the Germans and Italians and Russian Americans for matter were more disloyal.

 

[Lateknight]

Who say Democratic Union guys are going to be non-violent? Violence results in more violence, and killing US-Japanese citizens during WWII will backfire as violent Hawaian revolution

Also, neither US can win. Nuclear exchange is the losing proposition for both sides. The threat of nuclear strike have hold the US arms on Cuba, why not on Hawaii?

Drawing exact historical parallels, US will retain naval base of Pearl Harbor (Guantánamo on Cuba) and conflict got frozen for few decades if nuclear exchange threat is involved.

Of course, i agree this is a worst-case scenario. US leaders had usually enough flexibility to prevent large-scale social unrest in 20th century. Utuado Uprising was was the arguably largest-scale secession attempt (Puerto Rico, 1950), but it was still minor in scale.

It want until the 60s when soviet bombs could reliably reach the U.S. And it took for the parity to be achieved in terms of nuclear weapons. To do this the soviets poured a huge amount there wealth into there armed forces a policy that lead to the collapse of the Soviet Unions economy which lead the end of the communist regime. It's to say the U.S. couldn't win a nuclear in the fifties. As the Hawaiis voting for democrats they were vetted by the house of unamerican activities and those crazy bastards only arrested seven people, it's a major leap to think that what basically a change in voting preference could turn into a communist revoultion.