WI: No Coup Against Allende In Chile

LordKalvert

Banned
The coup was decided by Chileans for Chilean reasons. The US had tried to foment a coup and had failed miserably.

There were numerous issues among the various branches of the military and Allende- particularly Allende's policies that threatened the military's role as the sole bearer of arms- which was guaranteed under the Chilean Constitution.

The constant need for military officers to serve in the cabinet as arbitrators between the Congress and Allende was wearing thin

The final issue that brings about the coup was the discovery by the navy of the communist party forming cells in the enlisted ranks. This was a direct threat to the institutional survival of the Navy. The Navy decides on war

This leads to Jacqueline's birthday party. General Pinochet was being the proud father when General Leigh from the Air Force shows up and argued for doing "something". Pinochet was non commital. At that point, their meeting is interrupted by two navy captains sent by Admiral Merino announcing the Navy's decision and asking for support. Leigh joins immediately and then General Mendoza signed for the carabineros. Its only at that point that Pinochet joins.

So if the coup isn't even known to most of the plotters, it's pretty obvious that the CIA didn't know about it


As for what happens if there is no coup- Admiral Merino said it best "We were headed for a dictatorship of the left or a dictatorship of the right. In a dictatorship of the left, there would be no rich people. In a dictatorship of the right, there would be no poor people. I preferred a country without poor people"
 

TickTock The Witch's Dead

LordKalvert said:
The coup was decided by Chileans for Chilean reasons. The US had tried to foment a coup and had failed miserably.

There were numerous issues among the various branches of the military and Allende- particularly Allende's policies that threatened the military's role as the sole bearer of arms- which was guaranteed under the Chilean Constitution.

The constant need for military officers to serve in the cabinet as arbitrators between the Congress and Allende was wearing thin

The final issue that brings about the coup was the discovery by the navy of the communist party forming cells in the enlisted ranks. This was a direct threat to the institutional survival of the Navy. The Navy decides on war

This leads to Jacqueline's birthday party. General Pinochet was being the proud father when General Leigh from the Air Force shows up and argued for doing "something". Pinochet was non commital. At that point, their meeting is interrupted by two navy captains sent by Admiral Merino announcing the Navy's decision and asking for support. Leigh joins immediately and then General Mendoza signed for the carabineros. Its only at that point that Pinochet joins.

So if the coup isn't even known to most of the plotters, it's pretty obvious that the CIA didn't know about it


As for what happens if there is no coup- Admiral Merino said it best "We were headed for a dictatorship of the left or a dictatorship of the right. In a dictatorship of the left, there would be no rich people. In a dictatorship of the right, there would be no poor people. I preferred a country without poor people"
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The US supported the coup though.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
RandomWriterGuy said:
The US supported the coup though.
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It doesn't matter what the US does- the coup happens before they even know about it and it was done by the Chileans for Chilean reasons. Pinochet himself had put down the last revolt against Allende just months earlier

If Allende commits his criminal acts and if the navy finds out about them (which they do) the coup happens. Without them, the coup won't happen.

The US had tried everything to bring down Allende and had gotten nothing for it

The real big what if of the Chilean coup- what if Jackie wasn't having a birthday party? What if Pinochet, Leigh and Mendoza aren't all in the room when the navy shows up with the coup proposal?

Does that lead to a coup or civil war?
 

Czar Kaizer

Banned
LordKalvert said:
The coup was decided by Chileans for Chilean reasons. The US had tried to foment a coup and had failed miserably.

There were numerous issues among the various branches of the military and Allende- particularly Allende's policies that threatened the military's role as the sole bearer of arms- which was guaranteed under the Chilean Constitution.

The constant need for military officers to serve in the cabinet as arbitrators between the Congress and Allende was wearing thin

The final issue that brings about the coup was the discovery by the navy of the communist party forming cells in the enlisted ranks. This was a direct threat to the institutional survival of the Navy. The Navy decides on war

This leads to Jacqueline's birthday party. General Pinochet was being the proud father when General Leigh from the Air Force shows up and argued for doing "something". Pinochet was non commital. At that point, their meeting is interrupted by two navy captains sent by Admiral Merino announcing the Navy's decision and asking for support. Leigh joins immediately and then General Mendoza signed for the carabineros. Its only at that point that Pinochet joins.

So if the coup isn't even known to most of the plotters, it's pretty obvious that the CIA didn't know about it


As for what happens if there is no coup- Admiral Merino said it best "We were headed for a dictatorship of the left or a dictatorship of the right. In a dictatorship of the left, there would be no rich people. In a dictatorship of the right, there would be no poor people. I preferred a country without poor people"
Click to expand...
CIA, is that you?
 
theg*ddam*hoi2fan

theg*ddam*hoi2fan

Allende was the democratically elected leader of Chile. And considering his main policies included literacy programmes for the rural poor, increasing basic wages, giving assistance to the indigenous people and building new hospitals, I don't see what he was doing that necessitated him being overthrown by a man whose regime was one of the most vile in recent history :mad:
 
GSpectre

GSpectre

Allende had issues with governing, and the chamber of deputies was in open revolt by the time that the coupe happened. What ever good ideas he did have were ruined by his inability to actually govern. If there isn't a coupe... yeah, Allende would have a similar popular appeal as Mugabe.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
theg*ddam*hoi2fan said:
Because of American economic pressure. Even if they weren't involved in the coup, it was American pressure that created the conditions that facilitated it.
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That's the myth the left puts out. Chile's economic collapse is caused by

1) massive inflation caused by printing huge amounts of money

2) the collapse of foreign investment following the nationalization of the copper mines without compensation

3) the failure of Allende to enforce Supreme Court decrees

4) Price controls designed to punish opponents- one of the largest CIA expenses was subsidizing opposition newspapers that Allende tried to bankrupt by increasing the price of paper and raising wages while not allowing the papers to raise ad rates

5) the Soviets sent more than enough aid to back Allende from the small aid cut off Chile had from the US. The US continued military aid throughout the Allende period
 

LordKalvert

Banned
Lost Freeway said:
Really? So you're saying Allende wasn't an angel of democracy brutally struck down by the eeeeevil US?:rolleyes:
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No, he wasn't. Allende was a criminal hell bent on destroying Chilean democracy to implement his social agenda even though Allende had never gotten more than 35% of the vote

Allende bears the sole responsibility for the coup that brought him down.

The reasons for the coup, the details of the plot and the sequence of events leading Pinochet from crushing one attempt to joining the next have long been established as none of the plotters ever hid their role

Admiral Merino even hung his copy of the coup agreement on the wall and made you salute it when you walked into his office
 

Czar Kaizer

Banned
LordKalvert said:
No, he wasn't. Allende was a criminal hell bent on destroying Chilean democracy to implement his social agenda even though Allende had never gotten more than 35% of the vote

Allende bears the sole responsibility for the coup that brought him down.

The reasons for the coup, the details of the plot and the sequence of events leading Pinochet from crushing one attempt to joining the next have long been established as none of the plotters ever hid their role

Admiral Merino even hung his copy of the coup agreement on the wall and made you salute it when you walked into his office
Click to expand...
Oh yet a military coup which brings about decades of authoritarian rule did not destroy chilean democracy? That makes no sense.
Allende was elected via the democratic process if he were to removed it should have been through the democratic process and not the violent way he lost his life.
your claim that the coup somehow saved chilean democracy is factually wrong and smells like coup apologism to me.
 

Czar Kaizer

Banned
LordKalvert said:
That's the myth the left puts out. Chile's economic collapse is caused by

1) massive inflation caused by printing huge amounts of money

2) the collapse of foreign investment following the nationalization of the copper mines without compensation

3) the failure of Allende to enforce Supreme Court decrees

4) Price controls designed to punish opponents- one of the largest CIA expenses was subsidizing opposition newspapers that Allende tried to bankrupt by increasing the price of paper and raising wages while not allowing the papers to raise ad rates

5) the Soviets sent more than enough aid to back Allende from the small aid cut off Chile had from the US. The US continued military aid throughout the Allende period
Click to expand...
On your 4th point, how was this bad? If you knew that a foreign country was interfering in your media this seems like a justifiable action.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
Czar Kaizer said:
On your 4th point, how was this bad? If you knew that a foreign country was interfering in your media this seems like a justifiable action.
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On the 4th point- let's see you bankrupt every paper opposed to you and how can you have democracy?

The CIA authorized payment only to keep the papers alive. It was a response to Allende's actions not the other way around

I may disagree with a lot of the press but really do I want the government shutting down a paper that dares to criticize it?
 

LordKalvert

Banned
Czar Kaizer said:
Oh yet a military coup which brings about decades of authoritarian rule did not destroy chilean democracy? That makes no sense.
Allende was elected via the democratic process if he were to removed it should have been through the democratic process and not the violent way he lost his life.
your claim that the coup somehow saved chilean democracy is factually wrong and smells like coup apologism to me.
Click to expand...

Chilean democracy was destroyed before the coup and it was destroyed by the lawless behavior of Allende

"Allende was elected" sure but so was Papa Doc, so was Marcos, so was Hitler and so were a lot of other dictators

Democracy requires a government that respects the rule of law. Arming your supporters in violation of the law, is not democratic

Refusing to enforce Supreme Court rulings is not respecting the rule of law

Subverting the Military chain of command (and Chile's military's institutional independence from the President guaranteed by the Chilean Constitution) is not democratic

Or should we argue that Chile's dictatorship was democratic because it was approved by 65% of the voters in the 1980 plebiscite?
 
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