WI: New Zealand first settled by the Incas

[Mario]

Even if the Incas were not considered IOTL a seafaring civilization, what could have happened if, for some reason, they would have invested more efforts in developing a seafaring culture in the Pacific (maybe by eventual contact with Polynesians?), arriving to New Zealand prior to the Maori settlement?

Probably the Incas would have considered New Zealand a worthy place to settle (unlike other places in Polynesia they might knew) if they could reach it. Probably the local megafauna would have suffered a similar fate, but indeed the likely arrival of the Maori sooner or later would push them into a conflict.

Another interesting scenario is that if the Spanish also conquers the Inca Empire ITTL, the Incan elites could evacuate and take shelter in New Zealand (it is unlikely that the Spanish would follow them).

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Belongs in ASB, due the required Time Travel.
Incas didn't reach the sea until after 1438, by which point the Maori have been in Aotearoa for two centuries.

 

[SunKing105]

Belongs in ASB, due the required Time Travel.
Incas didn't reach the sea until after 1438, by which point the Maori have been in Aotearoa for two centuries.

Even later, since IIRC they didn't reach the Pacific coast until around 1470 when they conquered the Chimu.

 

[SunKing105]

Even if the Incas were not considered IOTL a seafaring civilization, what could have happened if, for some reason, they would have invested more efforts in developing a seafaring culture in the Pacific (maybe by eventual contact with Polynesians?), arriving to New Zealand prior to the Maori settlement?

Probably the Incas would have considered New Zealand a worthy place to settle (unlike other places in Polynesia they might knew) if they could reach it. Probably the local megafauna would have suffered a similar fate, but indeed the likely arrival of the Maori sooner or later would push them into a conflict.

Another interesting scenario is that if the Spanish also conquers the Inca Empire ITTL, the Incan elites could evacuate and take shelter in New Zealand (it is unlikely that the Spanish would follow them).

If you looked at a map, the distance alone would make it ASB. It's doubtful if they knew about the Galapagos, let alone a place as far away as New Zealand, which doesn't support their crops very well and has an already hostile population.

 

[Dan Handsome]

Same reason the Spanish didn't colonize the Moon. They had neither the means nor the reason to attempt it.

 

[Mario]

Belongs in ASB, due the required Time Travel.
Incas didn't reach the sea until after 1438, by which point the Maori have been in Aotearoa for two centuries.

Even later, since IIRC they didn't reach the Pacific coast until around 1470 when they conquered the Chimu.

My premise implies that the Incas should have reached the coastline way before in order to have enough time for developing a seafaring culture. So they should have reached at least two centuries before ITTL, choose the PoD you want for that.

If you looked at a map, the distance alone would make it ASB. It's doubtful if they knew about the Galapagos, let alone a place as far away as New Zealand, which doesn't support their crops very well and has an already hostile population.

According to Pedro Sarmiento, Yupanqui visited the islands, but this is not sure. Some evidences of Inca presence have been found in the Galapagos, but all are inconclusive.
Anyway, in this case they should have started a seafaring culture long time before probably by a) reaching the coastline way before they did IOTL and b) having eventual contact with Polynesians who supposedly visited the Peruvian-Chilean coastline.

Same reason the Spanish didn't colonize the Moon. They had neither the means nor the reason to attempt it.

If they had had contact with the Polynesians, they have learnt how to do it and probably if the Polynesians would have told the Incas about the existence of lands worth of settlement in the Ocean, maybe they could have raised their interest for travelling there.

As a silly comparison like yours, like if the aliens would have given spaceships to the Spanish and told them that in the Moon they could find gold.

 

[Silver01]

If you looked at a map, the distance alone would make it ASB. It's doubtful if they knew about the Galapagos, let alone a place as far away as New Zealand, which doesn't support their crops very well and has an already hostile population.

well if some theories are true they made as far as Mangareva (french polynisia) which i mean its still futher from new zeland.

 

[Dan Handsome]

If they had had contact with the Polynesians, they have learnt how to do it and probably if the Polynesians would have told the Incas about the existence of lands worth of settlement in the Ocean, maybe they could have raised their interest for travelling there.

As a silly comparison like yours, like if the aliens would have given spaceships to the Spanish and told them that in the Moon they could find gold.

But, why, when they have all of South America.

 

[GameBawesome]

I know this isn’t what the OP was looking for but I think this is the only possibly way the Inca can colonize New Zealand. But it’s a bit of a stretch

Have to Inca Empire never be conquered by Spain ( Only surrounding the Inca, and taking some inland territory, but never fully conquering them)

Then the Inca modernize and create a naval force, that expands outwards towards the pacific, making it to New Zealand.

This is a bit of a stretch, and I’m sorry if this isn’t what the OP is looking for, but that’s the only way I could see an Inca colonization of New Zealand

 

[SunKing105]

My premise implies that the Incas should have reached the coastline way before in order to have enough time for developing a seafaring culture. So they should have reached at least two centuries before ITTL, choose the PoD you want for that.

Then they wouldn't be Incas. They were a land power first and foremost, that was far more suited physically, ideologically, and culturally to the Andes which was their home. Furthermore, despite the possible prescence of a small Andean principality in Central Peru, the Incas would only begin their expansion under Pachacuti, in 1438, far too little time to make any noticeable improvements in seafaring tech.

According to Pedro Sarmiento, Yupanqui visited the islands, but this is not sure. Some evidences of Inca presence have been found in the Galapagos, but all are inconclusive.
Anyway, in this case they should have started a seafaring culture long time before probably by a) reaching the coastline way before they did IOTL and b) having eventual contact with Polynesians who supposedly visited the Peruvian-Chilean coastline.

Scattered legends of "Avachumbi" and "Ninanchumbi" are about all we have to go on, along with extremely sparse archaeological research, and that point is irrelevant, on the other hand, they never appeared to have any substantial contact with Mesoamerica or even the Northern Chibcha cultures around Panama and Northern Columbia. If they could not accomplish that, along a stretch of coast, what makes you think that they would be able to perform the deep-water navigation that even Old World ships would have trouble with.

If they had had contact with the Polynesians, they have learnt how to do it and probably if the Polynesians would have told the Incas about the existence of lands worth of settlement in the Ocean, maybe they could have raised their interest for travelling there.

They were worth it to the Polynesians for very specific reasons, the Andean civilizations will just see useless islands.

As a silly comparison like yours, like if the aliens would have given spaceships to the Spanish and told them that in the Moon they could find gold.

No, it's not like going to the moon, but to Mars with 1960s tech.

well if some theories are true they made as far as Mangareva (french polynisia) which i mean its still futher from new zeland.

Are those theories from credible historians and not crackpot fringe ones?

 

[SunKing105]

But, why, when they have all of South America.

Not all of it, or even close. Here's a map:

You can clearly see the vast extent of land that was not occupied by the Incas or any of their cultural predecessors in the general area of Andean civilization, instead by entirely unrelated groups.

 

[Aghasverov]

IMO the responses thus far to the OP have been a bit harsh... as admittedly far-fetched as the premise is, there's really nothing ASB about it. Just requires an early enough POD....
The Polynesians were capable of insanely-long sea voyages... the Incas, had they had reason to be, could certainly have become seafarers. They had, or could develop in the given span of time, the necessary technology to do it.
Now, it would be tentative at 1st... there are islands much closer than New Zealand - that would certainly not be their 1st voyage...
There'd have to be motivating factors though to make the Incas "take to the sea".... overpopulation? Civil war? Perceived benefit? Mere curiosity?
There have been links postulated (don't remember all the details, but I don't think it was entirely a "fringe theory") between the Jomon Culture of ancient Japan and the early cultures of Ecuador... which much later would be in the Inca sphere...

 

[SunKing105]

Another interesting scenario is that if the Spanish also conquers the Inca Empire ITTL, the Incan elites could evacuate and take shelter in New Zealand (it is unlikely that the Spanish would follow them).

Inca elites would likely go to Vilcabamba or deeper in the Amazon if they really have no other options. They probably have no knowledge whatsoever of the land.

 

[Silver01]

Are those theories from credible historians and not crackpot fringe ones?

Yes actually
Unlike they came before columbus or other bs

This one is actually supported as a valid hypothesis.

Túpac Yupanqui

www.peruredes.com

La Expedición Marítima de Tupac Yupanqui | PDF | Imperio Inca | Islas Galápagos

La expedición marítima del inca Túpac Yupanqui, un viaje que según los más connotados especialistas en la historia del Perú Antiguo fue un suceso real, aunque no se haya identificado aún las misteriosas islas adonde arribaron el inca y sus hombres. Textos de Hermann Buse de la Guerra (1973) y...

www.scribd.com

Jean Hervé, stated that the construction of the Ahu Vinapu very similar to to that of a Chulpa from Sillustani
Also in

Mangareva there is a legend about a King Tupa ( which would be inca tupac Yupanqui) who came from the east in rafts with candles, bringing goldsmiths, ceramics and textiles and of which there is still a dance to this day. A similar account existed in the Marquesas Islands. Likewise, the presence of the reed in the craters of the island stands out.

No to mention the genetic evidence of south american andean dna ( even though it's from 1200 not 15th century but if the south americans could do that in 1200 the Inca could in 1400s especially with more recourses )
Not saying this is 100% true but it's still a valid hypothesis.

Still it's 4000km more to new Zealand and the inca imo would not that journey since french polynesia is already 8000 away from peru

 

[Sarthak]

ASB is being thrown around too much as a word to describe what members think is 'implausible'. This does not require magic. It is a very hard alt-history granted, however not impossible and nor does it require magic.

A slow take on the OP......

When the Incans reach and conquer the pacific coast in 1438, the local elites of the former conquered incan states leave the empire with their entourage hoping to flee persecution from Cusco. They land in the Galapagos islands and stay there. Over time a seafaring culture arises in this neo-incan micro state and like the polynesians before them they start to conduct island hoping missions eventually reaching New Zealand by the late 1600s or early 1700s from where immigrants slowly trickle in and settle down in New Zealand.

This is basically what the Maori did anyways and could work as well.

 

[Dan Handsome]

Not all of it, or even close. Here's a map:
View attachment 624297
You can clearly see the vast extent of land that was not occupied by the Incas or any of their cultural predecessors in the general area of Andean civilization, instead by entirely unrelated groups.

What I was alluding to was why make the journey to colonize some distant island when they had the entirety of South America right there to settle more land.

 

[Mario]

What I was alluding to was why make the journey to colonize some distant island when they had the entirety of South America right there to settle more land.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think the Incas did not see the Amazon rainforest as worthy land, and it surrounded most of their Empire. And the same could be said for the desert of Atacama in the south. It is assumed by many historians that when the Spanish arrived, the Inca Empire had reached their maximum functional extension: they were hardly going to settle the Amazon basin, the Chaco, Atacama or get into the Panama isthmus.

If the Spanish never arrived or the Inca Empire would have formed faster than IOTL, and they would have been pressed to search for more new land, they should have better tried to expand their horizons just like the Europeans did (why Spain and Portugal tried to reach 'the Indies' (America) when they had other lands suitable for settlement in Africa, which was way closer? Because at that moment they found them unworthy).

 

[Sarufiyyun]

A fact that's hardly known is that the Spanish utilized native Mexican soldiers to conquer the Philippines. One simple PoD is for New Zealand to never be settled by the Maori; when the Spanish arrive in the empty New Zealand, they use predominately Peruvian settlers to populate the new colony. The islands end up getting a neo-Incan sort of characteristic.

 

[Dan Handsome]

Maybe I am wrong, but I think the Incas did not see the Amazon rainforest as worthy land, and it surrounded most of their Empire. And the same could be said for the desert of Atacama in the south. It is assumed by many historians that when the Spanish arrived, the Inca Empire had reached their maximum functional extension: they were hardly going to settle the Amazon basin, the Chaco, Atacama or get into the Panama isthmus.

If the Spanish never arrived or the Inca Empire would have formed faster than IOTL, and they would have been pressed to search for more new land, they should have better tried to expand their horizons just like the Europeans did (why Spain and Portugal tried to reach 'the Indies' (America) when they had other lands suitable for settlement in Africa, which was way closer? Because at that moment they found them unworthy).

First off, the Spanish and Portuguese never explored to find new land to settle. They were searching for a route to Asia. Second, they settled the Americas to extract resources. They didn't do the same with Africa because they were already getting said resources via trade. Portugal and Spain didn't have an abundance in population and had no shortage of land.

As for the Inca. Why are they expanding? Their empire was massive. They were stretched enough as is. If they needed to expand, they could easily head north into Columbia. They likely wouldn't since they would run into major logistical and communication issues.

 

[Mario]

First off, the Spanish and Portuguese never explored to find new land to settle. They were searching for a route to Asia. Second, they settled the Americas to extract resources. They didn't do the same with Africa because they were already getting said resources via trade. Portugal and Spain didn't have an abundance in population and had no shortage of land.

As for the Inca. Why are they expanding? Their empire was massive. They were stretched enough as is. If they needed to expand, they could easily head north into Columbia. They likely wouldn't since they would run into major logistical and communication issues.

It depends on expectations more than realities.

Spain and Portugal had already access to certain resources, as you said, by trading, but they expected to increase their wealthy (basically, obtain more gold and silver) through exploring these new routes. However, nothing was granted. Columbus could have find 'unworthy' land instead, depending which route he could have taken. They were not sure what kind of new resources they could find, but they had indications that the risk might be paid back (in fact, other explorers had considered it before but rejected the idea because of this same risk).

If somebody (i.e. Polynesians) tells the Incans that somewhere in the Ocean they can find interesting resources (whatever), they might be tempted at some point to try to reach them, if they could. This expectation does not need to be real (like many Europeans launched expeditions to find Eldorado or that fountain of the eternal youth, based in mere false expectations).