WI: Muslims win the Battle of Tours?

[ThePest179]

As it says in the title, what if the Franks lost the battle of Tours and the Muslims won instead?

I apologize in advance if this has been asked many times before.

 

[Ameck16]

Not much

When it comes to Islam in Europe not much, but this battle help the Carlogians rise to power so this may change the political order in Western Europe.

 

[RadishPumpkinsForever]

The Arabs were already at the extent of their supply lines. A victory would have probably just resulted in the official ceding of the various coastal French cities that were already controlled by the Arabs. This could have massive ripples. Trade between East and West would likely increase ones relations cooled down.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

The Arabs were already at the extent of their supply lines. A victory would have probably just resulted in the official ceding of the various coastal French cities that were already controlled by the Arabs. This could have massive ripples. Trade between East and West would likely increase ones relations cooled down.

Maybe, maybe not. As you pointed out, at that distance the Muslim forces were pretty much spent. The Franks can lose the battle but still win the war. Unless the Muslim forces crush the Franks I think another battle would be fought within a few years still leaving the Franks the victor just on a slightly delayed timescale.

 

[Scorpius72]

Maybe, maybe not. As you pointed out, at that distance the Muslim forces were pretty much spent. The Franks can lose the battle but still win the war. Unless the Muslim forces crush the Franks I think another battle would be fought within a few years still leaving the Franks the victor just on a slightly delayed timescale.

It also might've long term accelerated the Reconquest too.

 

[takerma]

Depends on degree of victory. If Martel is killed and army is routed then consequences can be drastic.

 

[LHB]

The Umayaads already had their hands full in keeping an eye on the remaining Christian kingdoms in the Iberian peninsula and the raid at Tours was at the long end of their supply chain. Even if Martel is killed and his army dispersed there isn't much that can be exploited from that beyond more loot.

The greater impact is on Frankish internal politics with the removal of the Carolingians from the picture before they begin their long rise.

 

[Gurroruo]

More loot for the Muslims
But possibly it could lead to the muslims later being able to push further into Western Europe, because the Carolingians will be less powerful leading to massive butteflies

 

[Advernt]

The Arabs were already at the extent of their supply lines. A victory would have probably just resulted in the official ceding of the various coastal French cities that were already controlled by the Arabs. This could have massive ripples. Trade between East and West would likely increase ones relations cooled down.

Weren't they also at the very extreme edge of their supply lines, during their invasion of Visigothic Iberia? I recalled their invasion was quite literally run on a shoe-string, with a core made out of recent Berber converts to Islam.

 

[gochisox]

that year i doubt much would change, but it may make the Arabs more likely to have the army size raidings then the smaller size raiding they did OTL, long run maybe a weaker Aquataine but not much.

 

[riggerrob]

When it comes to Islam in Europe not much, but this battle help the Carlogians rise to power so this may change the political order in Western Europe.

....................................................................................................

Let's continue with the original question ...
WI Charles Martel stops an arrow?
WI Christians lose the Battle of Tours.
WI No Carolingian Dynasty?
WI No Charlemagne?
WI No Holy Roman Empire?
WI The Catholic Church canonises Mohammed as a Catholic saint?
Who else can fill the power vacuum in France?

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

As it says in the title, what if the Franks lost the battle of Tours and the Muslims won instead?

Nothing would have happened, because that was not an invasion but a raid. they did not plan to stay they only wanted to plunder. Thus if they had won at Tours and Poitiers they would have returned to Spain with rich plunder and would have returned for more some years later. And then the Franks could have stopped them.

But it could have stopped the career of Charles Martel.

 

[Youngmarshall]

Nothing would have happened, because that was not an invasion but a raid. they did not plan to stay they only wanted to plunder. Thus if they had won at Tours and Poitiers they would have returned to Spain with rich plunder and would have returned for more some years later. And then the Franks could have stopped them.

But it could have stopped the career of Charles Martel.

Agreed, it really depends on what happens to charles martel and the franks.

If martel dies there and the frankish empire doesn't stumble into an equally vigirous ruler than that has huge consequences.

Tours wasn't anything more than a raid. But as a result of winning there Martel was able to campaign continuley against the moors and drive them back to the pyrenees and also bring independent toulouse back under the frankish wing.

And his son was able to claim the throne of france and his grandson christianised germany and founded the holy roman empire and with that the concept of 'christendom'. Also Martel's encounter with heavy cavalry at tours led him to creating the first heavy cavalry units in western europe in response which would have been delayed possibly by decades by his death with huge consequences.

The carolingian dynasty which really got roling at tours was a huge part in the history of france, italy, iberia and germany and a huge reason for why the islamic conquests reached their natural limit and why the counter attacks of the reconquistia and the crusades could take place. They were the second most written about christian force in islamic writing after only the byzantines and generally were recognised by the muslims as the most powerfual force they'd faced in western europe. A resounding defeat at tours could gut that enemy by wiping out it's army and it's primary leader.

However if martel jis just forced to retreat but remains alive and in good standing with his army then you probably see only minor differences. The improtance of the battle is less that it was won but that martel was able to uae it as a springboard.

 

[Caesar Biden]

I don't think it would have been as inconsequential as many here seem to imply. Would the Muslims have conquered anything in that particular raid? Probably not. As we've said, they had bigger problems to worry about, like continuing to get supplies or holding down Spain. But there could be an impact. Who's to say Muslims wouldn't be conquering next time around? Or the next time? The momentum would still be on their side, and there would no Carolingians to unite behind (there could be some other dynasty, but there also could not). A big part of history is how people of the time perceived themselves and the people around them, and the Battle of Tours changed many of those perceptions.

 

[Russian]

As it says in the title, what if the Franks lost the battle of Tours and the Muslims won instead?

I apologize in advance if this has been asked many times before.

If the Franks had lost the battle of Tours like the Visigoths of Hispania lost the Battle of Guadalete... I mean the same catastrophic disaster for the Franks and similar total victory for the Arabs... well, the consequences for France might have been similar to the consequences of Battle of Guadalete for Spain.
I do not mean exactly the same like the total conquest of whole of France, but similar, like say the Southern France under permanent Arabo-Berber rule or something like that. And in that case the further Muslim advance into Italy seems quite inevitable

just my opinion though