WI Matilda la Gran Contessa has an heir?

[Silent Cal]

According to wikipedia, since Matilda died childless and her lands never went to the pope as per her dying wish, for reasons unknown, her lands became a patchwork of city states.

Matilda's death of gout in 1115 at Bondeno di Roncore marked the end of an era in Italian politics. It has been reported that she left her allodial property to the Pope for reasons not known however this donation was never officially recognized in Rome and no record has reached us. Henry had promised some of the cities in her territory he would appoint no successor after he deposed her. In her place the leading citizens of these cities took control, and the era of the city-states in northern Italy began. In the 17th century, her body was removed to the Vatican, where it now lies in St. Peter's Basilica.

So, WI Matilda had a male child, an heir, either from her first marriage to Godfrey the Hunchback, or possibly even the second to Welf V of Bavaria? Would this retard or possibly even completely butterfly the latter Italian Renaissance which originated in no small part in Florence, or will its center simply shift somewhere else?

 

[Silent Cal]

I take it this means there is no interest for medieval Italian/HRE history?

 

[LSCatilina]

First, it could butterfly how Italian medieval history (including Renaissance movement), aka how Antiquity was not only considered as an important legacy (it's quite present in Middle Ages since 475) but how it was considered as the only legacy worth of being kept.

I don't think it would be easily done however : the use of roman law (instead of germanic, romano-germanic or roman customs) was a great legitimacy base for kings and emperors in search of power reinforcement at the expense of their vassals, it favoured merchants and urban autonomy, and gave an alternative to canon law.
Its extensive use would certainly have consequences.

Now, for the immediate consequences of a Canossa heir.

It's really depending on who is the father. Let's admit that her child in 1071 is male, Godfrey the father, and survives. I don't see the emperor allowing him to hold both Tuscany and Lower Lotharingia, making Conrad as OTL its duke.

Of course, the first consequences would be no shattering of Tuscany, but it wouldn't prevent the urban autonomy rise. Cities as Florence would eventually be more tied to another authority but at best on Canossa "protectorate" with more limited possibilities.
If the margraviate disappeared so quickly, it's also because it's territorial importance badly managed to hide its disparities.

For having an idea of what Italy could look like, take an hint to southern France and Catalonia of late XII/XIII centuries where the presence of technically large estates didn't prevented the presence of more or less large municipal autonomy.
Of course, the political fragmentation being largely internal for this case, it's a real possibility to see appearing powerful tuscan vassals, cities or lords.

Now, a lasting march of Tuscany would being alternativly papal or imperial aligned most of times, at least to counter Lombard rivalty and prevent pope or emperors to have a too great hold on them. Eventually, however, they're likely to join a Welf-like side.

How it could look like in the XIII is really depending on how well the marcheses would fare. Good enough and they could even have a imperial vicar title making them de facto vice-roy of Italy (with limited power on Lombardy and Verona that said), or having a protectorate on Romagna lands technically on papal suzerainty, or being badly crushed.
What's certain is Tuscany could play a role comparable to other HRE principalities as Lorraine.

 

[Silent Cal]

Thank you, that was quite informative.

I've been researching early Italian renaissance and the Guelph vs. Ghibelline feud lately. Coincidentally, your timeline Eagles and Hawks also inspired me to do some research on early medieval Catalonia.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Would a continuing Canossa Tuscany become a major player in the Italian power balance? I mean looking at the territories the Canossa controlled they would be in a perfect position to take control of much of Italy from both the Emperor and the Pope. Would the ruling Margrave merely switch sides every time one or the other is getting to powerful or would the Canossa eventually try to take all the marbles, usurping/reviving the old Kingdom of Italy? Would such a thing be possible or no?

 

[Elfwine]

Would a continuing Canossa Tuscany become a major player in the Italian power balance? I mean looking at the territories the Canossa controlled they would be in a perfect position to take control of much of Italy from both the Emperor and the Pope. Would the ruling Margrave merely switch sides every time one or the other is getting to powerful or would the Canossa eventually try to take all the marbles, usurping/reviving the old Kingdom of Italy? Would such a thing be possible or no?

Given their lack of any claim, doing so is going to stir up significant opposition - heck, even with a claim to overlordship of Lombardy the Emperors stirred up significant opposition.

And the Popes had little more luck controlling those who decided to ignore that their lands were technically in the Papal States.

So I wouldn't say impossible, but I wouldn't treat it as "a perfect position" at all.

 

[LSCatilina]

Would such a thing be possible or no?

Technically, it could be, but I doubt it will happen like this.

First, they would need to grow their power in Italy, and that's really possible only with the support of HREmperor. The issue is that Tuscany have little interest to support him : you'll argue that it can be an emperor they would have put in place, but it wouldn't be possible to last without a real anarchy situtation even in their estates.

Second, they need papal support. Emperors and Kings of Germany or Bohemia could ignored it, but Tuscany can't.
And if in a Interregnum-like situation, the pope and german princes support Tuscany, it's more likely they would name the margrave King of the Romans rather than King of Italy in order to show a pretention to HRE rather than Italy itself.
Again, in a very special scenario where Germany and Italy are definitly split, you could have two pretenders for HRE, one in part of Germany and the other in Italy + other parts of Germany. It wouldn't be a Kingdom of Italy tough, and would be probably hard to maintain.

I think the more realistic is still to make Canossa imperial vicar for Italy. Sort of viceroy if you prefer. Whatever given by the emperor more or less freely or stressed to do it by the situation (revolt in Germany, Canossa not being part of it but not enthusiast helping him and papal support, by exemple), it would gave them a limited power (limited by the capacity of HR Emperors to get their power back).

I don't see Tuscany turning Kingdom of Italy, without a collapse of HRE.

 

[LordKalvan]

It's not just a matter of Tuscany. The Canossas are also dukes of Spoleto, and lords of Modena, Reggio, Mantua, Brescia: effectively they control the lower Padan plain, with its bountiful lands, the navigation on the Po river and most of the passes across the Appennines (Via Francigena).

Unsurprisingly Boniface, Matilda's father, moved his seat to Mantua which was the most strategic of his possessions.

Coming back to Matilda, she had a daughter (who died soon after birth) out of his marriage with Godfrey the Hunchback of Lower Lorraine but the marriage lasted only a short time. Disregarding his unfortunate name tag, Godfrey the Hunchback was a redoubtable warrior and leader of men, and it is quite unfortunate that he and Matilda were apparently very uncompatible.
I think the POD for Matilda to produce issue should be here, at the very beginning of her career. Later on she fell for Ildebrando of Soana (later Gregory VII), who was a completely different kind of man (and apparently very compatible with the Great Countess, since she had a less-than-platonic relation with him for a very long time).

Matilda's problem was the impossibility of inheriting imperial fiefs under Salic law (there was not such a problem for allodial fiefs) and this problem could only be solved by getting male issue (as an aside, it is very strange that the emperor arranged the marriage between Matilda and Godfrey, since both of them had very strong claims on Lorraine. The only reasonable explanation is that Matilda was supposed to live in Lorraine, and was chosen to bolster Godfrey's claim. The feudal possessions of the Canossa in Italy would have reverted to the empire, and would have been probably parceled out to a number of imperial supporters. Obviously this nice arrangement went to pot when Matilda refused to play the role of the faithful and supportive wife in Lorraine, letting her family possessions in Italy go).

The second marriage of Matilda (to Welf V the Fat of Bavaria) came a bit too late in her life to produce issue (and it is reported never to have been consummated anyway).

In the end it is not so easily to make things work. The emperor was worried by the power and the riches accumulated by the Canossas in Italy, and it is quite likely that his goal was to break down this potential rival (Matilda was also first cousin of the emperor). This means that an imperially approved marriage of Matilda to the scion of some powerful Italian family (say the Alerami or the Welf Este) would not be likely (unless her father survives a few more years). If her brother Federico does not die very young (I'm not saying it was an imperial assassination, but...), he will inherit the Italian possessions and Matilda goes to Lorraine (and maybe makes it stick this time around). The other alternative is that Matilda does not get a crush for Ildebrando of Soana; when the Controversy for investitures breaks out Matilda is still reasonably young (less than 30) and she might take the opportunity to make a suitable marriage in Italy (maybe within the house of Hauteville) and have children.
For the sake of completeness, let's mention Robert Curthose. In 1084 or 1085
he guested with Matilda at the castle of Canossa, near Reggio, and allegedly they were in love. Assuming that this is true, Matilda is almost 40 (and Robert 8 years younger): I'm not so sure she can have healthy children, but it would make a great TL (in the Tuscan Sons TL I convinced ShadowKnight to go for this twixt: Matilda and Robert hada daughter, and then they went together to the first crusade. In the same TL Matilda and Godfrey had two sons and two daughters)