WI: Major Victory for Bourbon Powers in the War of the Spanish Succession?

[Mental_Wizard]

Could a major victory at some point during the war actually result in the full personal union of Spain and France? Would this be more like OTL but with no concessions? How much can the French and Bourbon Spanish get out of this war?

Thoughts?

 

[Tonifranz]

No personal union. It wasn't a goal of Louis XIV, and it wasn't a goal envisioned by Charles II of Spain in his will.

Philip V was the younger son of the Dauphin.

Louis XV was the son of the Duke of Burgundy, elder brother of Philip V.

The choice was deliberate. They did not want a Personal Union with France, and neither did France contemplate a personal union with Spain. So they chose the younger grandson.

If the Bourbons won an even greater victory than OTL, the most that could be gotten was that the Southern Netherlands would remain Spanish, and Naples would remain Spanish too.

 

[funnyhat]

Philip V might not have to waive his rights to the French succession, but there wouldn't be personal union because Louis XV survived that childhood illness into adulthood.

If Louis had died, I suppose it could be a little murky, but presumably Philip would abdicate the Spanish throne to take the French one. And then the King of Spain is . . . one of his sons, while the other inherits France? Not sure how that would have worked.

 

[Tonifranz]

Philip V might not have to waive his rights to the French succession, but there wouldn't be personal union because Louis XV survived that childhood illness into adulthood.

I thought Philip V did renounce the claim to the French throne in 1700.

According to Wikipedia, "At a Royal Council meeting in France, it was agreed that Philip would accept the Spanish throne, but would forever renounce his claim to the throne of France for himself and his descendants."

 

[Tonifranz]

If Louis had died, I suppose it could be a little murky, but presumably Philip would abdicate the Spanish throne to take the French one. And then the King of Spain is . . . one of his sons, while the other inherits France? Not sure how that would have worked.

Probably Charles, Duke of Berry, Philip's younger brother. After all, the will of Charles II offered it to Charles, Duke of Berry if Philip, Duke of Anjou, refused.

 

[funnyhat]

I thought Philip V did renounce the claim to the French throne in 1700.

According to Wikipedia, "At a Royal Council meeting in France, it was agreed that Philip would accept the Spanish throne, but would forever renounce his claim to the throne of France for himself and his descendants."

Yeah, but at that time it seemed very unlikely that he'd be in line for the French throne. Circumstances could allow him to go back on that, and ITTL he'd have the military strength to back it up. After all, Louis XIV publicly declared that he should still have his rights to the succession.

 

[Cornelis]

Yeah, but at that time it seemed very unlikely that he'd be in line for the French throne. Circumstances could allow him to go back on that, and ITTL he'd have the military strength to back it up. After all, Louis XIV publicly declared that he should still have his rights to the succession.

In the eyes of the traditionalists at Versailles, one cannot renounce his rights to the french throne. With a bit of contempt, they argued that the rights to the spanish throne could be renounced, so in the event of a personal union, the king should renounce to the Madrid throne. In this event, his second son should have Spain while the eldest is heir-apparent to Spain. However, the will of Charles II specified, as @Tonifranz said, that in this case, it is Berry, the younger brother, who is line rather than any son of Philip V.

In all the different succession plans pre-1700, the french annexations goals were Italy (Naples Sicily) first, eventually Savoy in place of Italy, and Lorraine. They never considered a Netherlands annexation. So we can imagine in a major Bourbon victory a Lorraine annexation with a compensation in Italy (Milan ?) for the Duke. Another point is the settlement of the (future) Tuscan succession, as the Bourbons ITTL would be in a better place to dictate their will.

 

[Matteo]

However one can easily imagine that if the french armies had gone from victory to victory, if Schellenberg or Blenheim had been a french triumph, then Bourbon France could have dealt with Bourbon Spain that the spanish Netherlands be given to France as a payback for french war effort in securing the spanish succession for Philip of Bourbon.