WI: M1 Garand designed around .250-3000 cartridge

[Deleted member 1487]

I know this is a older thread at this point, but having looked into the FABRL and CETME long, light bullets, the 6.35mm caliber in a shortened .25 Savage case could be an excellent assault rifle cartridge, especially with a CETME rifle system. It might even make a fine SAW and DMR or even Sniper system provided it was adopted earlier enough. 6.35x39mm made from shortened Savage case and a 70 grain extra long aluminum bullet might even be able to maintain at least the 3000fps muzzle velocity of the Savage cartridge if it uses more modern (post 1915) powders.

 

[BigBlueBox]

How plausible is it that John Browning would design the original BAR to use a lighter round than .30-06 and it would still be adopted and see combat in WWI? If that happened, I think the Army would be far more likely to adopt that round for usage in their semi-automatic rifle.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

How plausible is it that John Browning would design the original BAR to use a lighter round than .30-06 and it would still be adopted and see combat in WWI? If that happened, I think the Army would be far more likely to adopt that round for usage in their semi-automatic rifle.

Probably totally given that the customer was the US military, which only used the .30-06 caliber.
You'd need the US military to have kept an alternate caliber, like the 6mm Lee Navy, as the POD for that. Remember the US Army did start using an intermediate cartridge for their SLR program in the 1920s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedersen_rifle

Testing in the early 1920s led the Ordnance Bureau to identify three rifle designs - the Bang rifle, the Thompson Autorifle, and the primer-protrusion actuated Garand Model 1919 rifle - as promising candidates. However, all three designs were burdened with the high pressure and heat generating characteristics of the .30-06 ammunition, which looked likely to result in a weapon too heavy and too subject to overheating to be worthwhile. Trials with a small number of "militarized" .25 Remington autoloading rifles, despite their unsuitability for combat, provided a body of practical experience with semiautomatic rifles and an appreciation for the idea less powerful ammunition might be a critical part of the successful development of such weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_Remington

Using ball powder that could have been turned into quite the hot cartridge, just with a higher pressure depending on the weight of the bullet. They probably could trim it down too if they used a smaller flat based bullet modeled on the M1906 Ball bullet, though with a M1 Ball copy, scaled to the .25 caliber, would work too, but they'd probably have to keep the original case length. As it today the cartridge could use a 115 grain VLD .25 caliber bullet that, while better shaped than the M1 Ball, is roughly the weight and length of that bullet were it scaled down to .25 caliber. The muzzle velocity would be 720 m/s (per the performance for a 117 grain bullet for the cartridge) at over 1900 joules, a bit more powerful than 7.92 Kurz from the StG44, plus higher velocity and with vastly better sectional density and ballistic shape. No reason it couldn't have been a 600m cartridge in that case even without the modern (for WW2) powders.

 

[phx1138]

I don't want to rain on the parade, but it seems to me you need to change the Army's approach to riflemen, & rifles, before you even consider doing this. How do you get that changed?

If people just want to noodle the issue without worrying if the Army would ever actually do it, feel free to ignore this.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I don't want to rain on the parade, but it seems to me you need to change the Army's approach to riflemen, & rifles, before you even consider doing this. How do you get that changed?

If people just want to noodle the issue without worrying if the Army would ever actually do it, feel free to ignore this.

Yeah I think we all acknowledged pretty early on that the OTL Army would never go for it, so this is more an fun exercise in what if rather than a realistic one.

 

[marathag]

Yeah I think we all acknowledged pretty early on that the OTL Army would never go for it, so this is more an fun exercise in what if rather than a realistic one.

The Army may have gone for it, as a replacement carbine for Cavalry and to replace pistols, as the M1 Carbine later did.

Since it's flat shooting, basic flip peep sight, for two ranges, 'battle' and 'far'.
That way the cult of Marksmanship is appeased with the Springfield to remain 'King'

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The Army may have gone for it, as a replacement carbine for Cavalry and to replace pistols, as the M1 Carbine later did.

The problem for WW1 is that the military wouldn't adopt a different caliber; carbines were just lightened versions of the basic infantry rifle. By the 1930s traditional cavalry was pretty much gone and there is no need for a cavalry carbine. The M1 Carbine was for troops behind the lines, but near enough to the front to be threatened. It wasn't simply a pistol replacement, as it didn't actually replace pistols, it was a weapon to fill the gap in role between the pistol and full powered rifle. The M3 Grease Gun was probably more a pistol replacement.

Since it's flat shooting, basic flip peep sight, for two ranges, 'battle' and 'far'.
That way the cult of Marksmanship is appeased with the Springfield to remain 'King'

Like I said it's certainly a fun idea, but I still don't see OTL Army having any interest because even the carbines were supposed to be full powered rifles, just lightened and perhaps shortened. After all they tried to make a tanker Garand:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand#Tanker_models

Now something like the low recoil 7.62 NATO might be an option for an early M1 Carbine type weapon. Shorten the .30-06 and use the 90 grain steel bullet and you'd still have 500m performance.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

The Army may have gone for it, as a replacement carbine for Cavalry

no, they wouldn't have, us ordnance had gone away the cavalry carbine + infantry long rifle model and adopted the universe short rifle concept when they had switched from the krag to the 1903, they weren't willing to switch back
then there's the fact that us cavalry tended to fight dismounted, and acted more like dragoons going back to the civil war, when the 5 mounted regiments were folded into 1 branch of the army
finally, during the 30's there was major push to convert the cavalry to a mechanized/armored force, a process that was completed post war

 

[marathag]

during the 30's there was major push to convert the cavalry to a mechanized/armored force, a process that was completed post war

The desire for a shorter carbine started in 1938, and led to the Winchester M1 winning the contractafter it was decided that a 30 caliber version of the 1905 Winchester 32SL would be used as a base caliber. Why that caliber? That I never discovered.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The desire for a shorter carbine started in 1938, and led to the Winchester M1 winning the contractafter it was decided that a 30 caliber version of the 1905 Winchester 32SL would be used as a base caliber. Why that caliber? That I never discovered.

The .30 carbine? I've got ya:

 

[marathag]

The .30 carbine? I've got ya:

Doesn't say why they went for Winchester initially though, as said in the video, the cartridge was worth another video

Why not Remington or Savage, to bring it back on track

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Doesn't say why they went for Winchester initially though, as said in the video, the cartridge was worth another video

Why not Remington or Savage, to bring it back on track

AFAIK it was because Winchester had merged with Olin and was the biggest cartridge company in the country at the time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olin_Corporation#Expansion_and_acquisitions
Remington at the time didn't have the capacity to compete, which necessitated a major expansion of capacity in 1940:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Arms#20th_century

 

[CalBear]

There is no law that prevents Army to request new automatic rifles and MGs for new round.



Not within this thread.

There was a law, a law unto himself immune to Presidential Direct Order

The One, the Only, the Pompous Narcissist, Youngest Major General in the entire U.S. Army, and Army Chief of Staff, Douglas, why yes, I am God's gift to Mankind, MacArthur. Ol' Doug figured the Army had a few million .30-06 rounds left over from the Great War and it would be a disservice to the U.S. Taxpayer, the U.S. Army, and America herself to buy a new weapon that couldn't use all that ammo.

Wish to God I was making this up.

I'm not.

 

[marathag]

Wish to God I was making this up.

I'm not.

And then not a round of the 30-06 M1928 or M1 Ball was ever used in the Garand during the War. All new manufacture M2 Ball was what it was fed