WI: Luftwaffe goes all in on "Sonderkommando ELBE" after Operation Badenplatte'?

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What if after the debacle of Operation Baseplate, the Luftwaffe realize they can't effectively beat the Allies in numbers so go all in on "Sonderkommando ELBE" style missions?

How successful would ELBE aircrews be?
What would be the effect on the 8th AF aircrews morale as these attacks continued?
Would these attacks have the same effect as the 'Kamikaze' attacks in the Pacific despite not actually being suicide attacks?
If these attacks continued for a couple of months, would it force the 8th AF to stop the air campaign until these attacks could be countered?

Much obliged!
 
They would be suicide attacks as the chances of parachuting out of the plane in time is practically zero.

The last thing the Luftwaffe wants to do is sacrifice more planes and pilots. Really bad idea.
 
By this time its too late to do much of anything, even a "successful" ELBE is going to buy Germany a few days or a week at most.
 
In the OTL Sonderkommando Elbe's sole mission against a fleet of 1,380 US aircraft in April 1945, only 17 were destroyed and 189 were damaged. These minimal gains are not going to help the Germans in the long run and the US pilots will eventually get wise to the Sonderkommando's modus operandi after a brief period of shock. It would probably be easier to defend against the Sonderkommando then it was against the kamikazes in the Pacific, since the pilots in Europe only have to worry about their planes, not aircraft carriers.
 

CalBear

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The number of pilots would certainly be very limited. The Kamikaze system was successful in mass recruitment (although not pilots were volunteers) thanks to a very complex set of social constructs that were unique to the Japanese culture, with elements dating back to before the founding of the Great Shogunate.

Those elements were entirely lacking from German culture. You would have a limited number of pilots who would grasp the nettle, most of the rest would have taken off headed toward WAllied lines, dropped their landing gear and lowered their flaps in hopes of surrendering or at least gotten as close to the WAllied Lines (which were only about 10-15 minutes flight time from what was left of Germany) and bailed out.

The mission was a death sentence. The first time it was tried, of the 12 pilots who actually engaged (of 180 who took off on the mission, which itself speaks quite eloquently as to the enthusiasm of the crews) seven were KIA, four were WIA. One came down unhurt. The managed to down 8 bombers (the worst part is that the pilots who conducted conventional attack and AAA shot down more bombers than the poor deluded bastated who tried to ram). That was BEFORE the escorts had figured out what was happening.

Exactly how many Luftwaffe pilots who do manage to bail out are going to make it to the ground alive once the Americans twig to what is happening?
 
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Otto Skorzeny tried to get together a group of volunteers to fly the manned V-1 into prime targets but Hitler overruled him, the Fuhrer was dead-set against one-way missions.
 
More german pilots die before the end than in IRL. RAF/USAAF beef up the escorts. Zero efect on the war.

By 1945, short of ASB giving nukes to Germany, nothing will matter.
 
...now that I think of it, my grandfather might have witnessed Badenplatte. He told he watched a German plane smash into his neighboring B-17 and that both planes "disappeared."
 
More german pilots die before the end than in IRL. RAF/USAAF beef up the escorts. Zero efect on the war.

By 1945, short of ASB giving nukes to Germany, nothing will matter.
This. Only if ELBE is introduced much earlier will it have any chance to make an appreciable effect. And even then the loss of pilots will probably overwhelm any positive results in the long run.
 
This. Only if ELBE is introduced much earlier will it have any chance to make an appreciable effect. And even then the loss of pilots will probably overwhelm any positive results in the long run.
Not even that, I think. Some efect on the bombing campaign? Maybe. In the end, it's still soviets roflstomping Berlin in May 45.
 
Not even that, I think. Some efect on the bombing campaign? Maybe. In the end, it's still soviets roflstomping Berlin in May 45.
I think they just meant a different number of allied and axis planes being lost, not adding or shaving off months from the war
 
I think they just meant a different number of allied and axis planes being lost, not adding or shaving off months from the war
That would change, yes; a few more USAAF bombers mainly (because it was the USAAF that hit during the day) and more germans killed.
 

Garrison

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I can't remember who but some senior Luftwaffe officer pointed out the basic flaw in the plan. If you are getting to point blank range you might as well just use your guns and try and break off and do it again. Simply put, nearly suicidal was better than actually suicidal. This worked in practice. Getting to can't miss range and shooting proved an effective tactic.
 
I can't remember who but some senior Luftwaffe officer pointed out the basic flaw in the plan. If you are getting to point blank range you might as well just use your guns and try and break off and do it again. Simply put, nearly suicidal was better than actually suicidal. This worked in practice. Getting to can't miss range and shooting proved an effective tactic.

Wasn't there another issue in that actually hitting plane in mid air (even a 4 engine bomber) in a way that your single engine fighter will do enough damage* to stop it is actually pretty hard especially in combat. So it's not just being willing to do it, but capable of doing it and the situation allowing you to do it

Don't get me wrong not every Kamikaze hit their intended navy target, but a 10kt ship going 20knt is an easier target than a B17 going 160mph


*IIrc were there examples of planes trying this and just losing their own wings on collision because they didn't hit squarely
 
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Garrison

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Wasn't ther another issue in that actually hitting plane in mid air (even a 4 engine bomber) in a way that your single engine fighter will do enough damage* to stop it is actually pretty hard espailly in combat. So it not just being willing to do it, but capable of doing it and the situation allowing you to do it

Don't get me wrong not every Kamikaze hit their intended navy target, but a 10kt ship going 20knt is an easier target than a B17 going 160mph


*IIrc were there examples of planes trying this and just losing their own wings on collision because they didn't hit squarely
This was another issue but one I believe that was addressed by modifying aircraft to reinforce the leading edges of the wings and tail. And as you say given the quality of the pilots actually getting in a direct hit was hard. Wish I could find my ancient copy of Last Talons of the Eagle which went into this in some detail.
 
I can't remember who but some senior Luftwaffe officer pointed out the basic flaw in the plan. If you are getting to point blank range you might as well just use your guns and try and break off and do it again. Simply put, nearly suicidal was better than actually suicidal. This worked in practice. Getting to can't miss range and shooting proved an effective tactic.

Well i suppose the idea is to fire your guns at enemies untill empty and then crash your plane into one. the ammo of a figher goes dry a lot faster than you might think.
 
Well i suppose the idea is to fire your guns at enemies untill empty and then crash your plane into one. the ammo of a figher goes dry a lot faster than you might think.
That's not going to work; even in the best of times, fighters had time to one pass, maybe two. Try more than that, and either the escorts or the bomber's massed guns will get you. It would be "banzai on the 1st run or nothing". Besides why waste guns & ammo on a suicide fighter? Remove them to save them.
 
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