WI: Leningrad instead of Kursk

Basically what the title says.
What if the the german offensive in 1943 is not directed at Kursk, but at Leningrad, with the goal to end and win the siege


I could see several reasons why this could be seen as more favourable:

1. Leningrad, unlike Kursk is difficult to reinforce and supply for the Soviets.
2. Morale Boost/ Propaganda victory, for taking such an important city.
3.Freeing the troops bound in the siege and link up with the Finns, thus shortening the frontline greatly.
4.Capturing the Base of the Soviet Baltic Fleet ( which would be either captured or sunk)
5.Taking whats left of its Industry







Yay no more lurking by the way :D.
 
Last edited:

abc123

Banned
Basically what the title says.
What if the the german offensive in 1943 is not directed at Kursk, but at Leningrad, with the goal to end and win the siege


I could see several reasons why this could be seen as more favourable:

1. Leningrad, unlike Kursk is difficult to reinforce for the Soviets.
2. Morale Boost/ Propaganda victory, for taking such an important city.
3.Freeing the troops bound in the siege and link up with the Finns, thus shortening the frontline greatly.
4.Capturing the Base of the Soviet Baltic Fleet ( which would be either captured or sunk)
5.Taking whats left of its Industry







Yay no more lurking by the way :D.


But, wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask: WI: Leningrad instead of Stalingrad?
 

Rubicon

Banned
Basically what the title says.
What if the the german offensive in 1943 is not directed at Kursk, but at Leningrad to win the siege.



I could see several reasons why this could be seen as more favourable:

1. Leningrad, unlike Kursk is difficult to reinforce for the Soviets.
2. Morale Boost/ Propaganda victory, for taking such an important city.
3.Freeing the troops bound in the siege and link up with the Finns, thus shortening the frontline greatly.
4.Capturing the Base of the Soviet Baltic Fleet ( which would be either captured or sunk)
5.Taking whats left of its Industry







Yay no more lurking by the way :D.

Best time for the Germans to take Leningrad is in late July, early August -41. Second best time to take Leningrad was after the fall of Sevastopol as was planned.
In July -43 it is to well fortified and reinforced.
 
Basically what the title says.
What if the the german offensive in 1943 is not directed at Kursk, but at Leningrad, with the goal to end and win the siege

Germany literally couldn't afford to ignore the Kursk salient in 1943 and both sides knew it (which is why it developed into the crucial battle of OTL). Either they attack at Kursk (and run into the same mess they did OTL) or they stay on the defensive. There were too many Soviet formations at Kursk for Germany to be able to concentrate their forces anywhere else.

If they tried to go for Leningrad, the forces at Kursk (IIRC, some several million soldiers) smash into the German flank and the German army loses the strategic initiative for the rest of the war. Granted, OTL was an all-or-nothing attempt to regain it after Stalingrad, but going after anything but Kursk is essentially ceding initiative to the Soviets.
 
Best time for the Germans to take Leningrad is in late July, early August -41. Second best time to take Leningrad was after the fall of Sevastopol as was planned.
In July -43 it is to well fortified and reinforced.

The Offensive doesnt have to happen in July, it could also happen earlier (like may when manstein wanted to start citadel in Otl).

Also the soviet forces of Otl were too strong for the german forces, that were there Otl, but with a Kursk like buildup it could make a difference.

Remember Leningrad was still mostly encircled, it could only be supplied by boat or through a narrow strip of land (10- 12 km i think). And that strip was in range of the german artillery.

Anyway bringing supplies , especially tanks and other heavy equiqment, would be somewhat difficult. I can totally see the Soviet units running
out of supplies, incase of an offensive, where supply use usually skyrockets.
 
Germany literally couldn't afford to ignore the Kursk salient in 1943 and both sides knew it (which is why it developed into the crucial battle of OTL). Either they attack at Kursk (and run into the same mess they did OTL) or they stay on the defensive. There were too many Soviet formations at Kursk for Germany to be able to concentrate their forces anywhere else.

If they tried to go for Leningrad, the forces at Kursk (IIRC, some several million soldiers) smash into the German flank and the German army loses the strategic initiative for the rest of the war. Granted, OTL was an all-or-nothing attempt to regain it after Stalingrad, but going after anything but Kursk is essentially ceding initiative to the Soviets.


The giant buildup in Kursk happened as response to the german one, the soviets knew in otl the attack would happen at Kursk, thus the millions of soldiers. In otl the Soviets waited for a german attack, which they could counterattack, but in Leningrad they couldnt do that, as the city was too cutoff.

Of Course in the end its somewhat of gamble, but i think its a gamble that could have been taken.
 
The Germans didn't have the necessary reserve infantry formations for an attack like that (I can't imagine you are suggesting they would have a general assault on the city itself after cutting it off)

The only plan that made sense after 3rd kharkov was Guderian/Rommel/Speer, minor withdrawls for line straitening and otherwise sit put and do nothing
 
The Germans didn't have the necessary reserve infantry formations for an attack like that (I can't imagine you are suggesting they would have a general assault on the city itself after cutting it off)

The only plan that made sense after 3rd kharkov was Guderian/Rommel/Speer, minor withdrawls for line straitening and otherwise sit put and do nothing

The plan i imagine is something like this

1. Take the small strip of land that connects Leningrad to the rest of the Soviet Union
2. Evade Leningrad at first and move East and secure the shore of the Lake Lagoda, to cut the city of of any supplies or reinforcements.
3. Link up with the finns in the north and then have Leningrad encircled from all sides.

After that it gets interesting.

Actually the northern side of Leningrad was the least defended, because the finns did not participate in the siege, allowing the soviet field marshal (Voroshilov)
to send his forces into the south.

Now if the first three objects are met. It can go either way.
The Army can use the freed troops to stabilize the fronts in the south and let the city starve, or try to take it through the weakpoint in the north and if successful free up even more troops( But as you said they probably dont have enough infantry, though the now also freed finnish troops could replace the german expeditionary corps in finnland, which then could fight there):)
 
The strategic reason for the Battle of Kursk was to provide the Nazis one final spectacular victory ala the early Barbarossa and Case Blue vintage which would show the world that Germany had plenty of fight within her left which might convince her enemies to agree to a negotiated peace. There are problems with that scenario, but that was the thinking.

A victory at Leningrad will not do that since there is no chance of bagging lots of troops and destroying major formations of the Red Army. So while it's an option, this is likely the reason why Hitler did not pursue it.

But what if he did? The Germans were best while fighting in the open ground, using their panzers to encircle and destroy the enemy. The Wehrmacht was not equipped or trained for city combat. Going into Leningrad presents the Germans with the same tactical situation as their initial advance into Stalingrad. They are going to be fighting city block by city block for a long time. While it would not lead to the same strategic situation that contributed to the success of Soviet operations in Uranus and Saturn, even before the Soviet counterattack Stalingrad was called the "mass grave of the Wehrmacht".

The Germans will probably take the city, but only at high casualties. The slow slog will probably devastate German morale as the soldiers see another army eaten up. And at some point once the Soviets realize the Germans aren't going to attack Kursk, they will launch their own offensive.
 
very true

Morale would likely take a blow. If the Soviets fight for Lenningrad like they did for Stalingrad, then the Germans are in for a slow and costly invasion.

It would worsen the war as the first major action they take would be facing the horrors of fighting the Red Army tooth and nail for bombed and wasted city blocks. They would get a taste of losses to come and some might question Hitlar's leadership sooner than before.

Unless they can figure out a way to take it quickly before it is able to mount its defenses. I don't know exactly what the chances of that are, but I find it unlikely.
 

Cook

Banned
Why would you want to take Leningrad anyway? Just full of starving people.

That one is the easiest to answer: Leningrad. It is like the hypnosis Stalingrad had.

And while it was a siege, people shouldn’t think there wasn’t a lot of heavy fighting associated with Leningrad. Harrison Salisbury’s The 900 Days is a good book on the subject.
 
Not Manstein's plan

From the post author Nekronion: The plan I imagine is something like this
1. Take the small strip of land that connects Leningrad to the rest of the Soviet Union
2. Evade Leningrad at first and move East and secure the shore of the Lake Lagoda, to cut the city of of any supplies or reinforcements.
3. Link up with the finns in the north and then have Leningrad encircled from all sides
.

Points 1&2 Nekronion rightly has AGNorth ignore assaulting the city and instead launch an attack upon the approaches / supply lines to the city. The goal= to fully isolate Leningrad from the Soviets to the south and west. In any case, 18th Army OTL 1943 would need serious additions for any Spring / Summer ofensive
Point 3... Nekronion is incorrect if he believes the Finns had ANY willingness to advance from their winter 1941 Karelian defensive line. Indeed, February 3 '43, as the last German units surrender at Stalingrad... Mannerheim and the Fin leadership decide war is lost and to have Treaty of Moscow version 2.0 ASAP.

So with apologies to Nekronion.... KG offers the following timeline & POD.

OTL 1942 Russian offensive operations
Lyuban / Volkhov Operation (January 1942 - April 1942)= OTL Failure
Sinyavin Offensive (Aug '42 - Sept '42)= OTL Failure
OTL 1943 Russian offensive operations
Operation Iskra / Spark January 12–22, 1943 = OTL Germans forced back from Lake Ladoga.
OTL Operation Polyarnaya Zvezda / Polar Star will start Feb 10 1943

The POD that cancels the Death ride of Citadel / Kursk and greenlights a encirclement of Leningrad?? No Hitler is not killed in EITHER of the barely failed bomb attempts of March 1943. [Although that certainly would have prevented the OTL Battle of Kursk.]

1st POD: Nov 1942 Despite pressures in the south, Hitler retains some of the Operation Northern Light / Nordlicht forces [a couple extra IDs from 11th army & BIG seige guns and other anti-seige elements] in Army Group North. The heavy siege artillery that shattered Sevastopol target the Oranienbaum pocket in preparation for BETTELSTAB ("beggar's staff"). Hilter may be in trouble in STALINgrad, but he wants the biggest Krupp guns to pound the outskirts of LENINgrad.
Jan 18 43 Operation Iskra / Spark: Soviet forces link up at Workers’ Housing Estate #5. A 5 by 6 mile Land corridor of peat bogs is opened to the city. Within month, a land RR connection supplies the city for first time since late 1941.

Jan 25 1943 Soviet success of Iskra on the shore of Ladoga causes a “spark” in Hitler. As he learns that von Paulus’ last runway was lost, Hitler knows the Battle for STALINgrad is over. Manstein’s battered panzers could not relieve the seige. Hitler vows to turn the tables on Stalin and turn LENINgrad into a mirror of Stalingrad. Hilter listens as Kuechler of AGN, Zeitzler and Kluge all argue [true to OTL] that Iskra would have failed if any infantry reserves existed for AGN. Their combined voices connect with Hitler’s “spark.”

They are shocked when Hitler declares more reserves for counter attacks are needed. The Soviet Op MARS hit Rzhev and Hitler allows the immediate withdrawal from the exposed Rzhev salient [OTL Von Kluge allowed to withdrawal March 1943]. They also ask if Hitler approves the withdrawal from Demyansk salient [OTL Hitler approved Jan 31 after a week of debate.]

“No.”

Hitler knows he needs a victory to reprove German power. He needs the Finns to remain in the fight. He orders old operational plans from 1942 brought for his review: BETTELSTAB: for the Oranienbaum pocket; MOORBRAND: for the area near Kirishi... and more importantly he wants the newest maps of the bridgeheads over the Volkhov River, the area of Staraya Russa, and terrain between Lake Ilmen and Valdai Hills just north of the finger thin Demyansk salient…
 
Point 3... Nekronion is incorrect if he believes the Finns had ANY willingness to advance from their winter 1941 Karelian defensive line. Indeed, February 3 '43, as the last German units surrender at Stalingrad... Mannerheim and the Fin leadership decide war is lost and to have Treaty of Moscow version 2.0 ASAP.

Just to clarify, with "linking up" i ment, that the german offensive reaches the finnish lines, which allows the Fin leaders to place their troops elsewhere, not that finnish troops would participate in the offensive.

Nice ideas by the way, i like them.:)
 
looping around to bypass the city from the northwest involved going through some really crappy terrain features, and the strategic importance of Leningrad had long passed.... Germany's fuel and ammo reserves, along with their new generation of armor not being particularly mobile or reliable on long road marches made any sort of longish distance offensive a fool's gamble

like I said, Guderian's plan was the most realistic
 

Rubicon

Banned
I still say the best opppurtunity for the Germans to take Leningrad would be in late July/early August -41. Replace von Leeb with either von Kluge (most likely) or von Kleist and it migh very well happen. That and/or never send DAK to north Africa and instead attach the DAK divisions to Heeresgruppe Nord
 
I still say the best opppurtunity for the Germans to take Leningrad would be in late July/early August -41. Replace von Leeb with either von Kluge (most likely) or von Kleist and it migh very well happen. That and/or never send DAK to north Africa and instead attach the DAK divisions to Heeresgruppe Nord

I've argued this as well

Put the DAK, plus the replacements and airpower with army group north, and they capture Leningrad by end of July 1941 due to Manstein, and Rommel crushing all the militia on the Dvina instead of letting them withdraw back to the city
 

Rubicon

Banned
I've argued this as well

Put the DAK, plus the replacements and airpower with army group north, and they capture Leningrad by end of July 1941 due to Manstein, and Rommel crushing all the militia on the Dvina instead of letting them withdraw back to the city

It is an intriguing scenario I must say. What are the reasons for DAK not being sent? Italy doing better or worse in Cyrenaica/Egypt is an obvious reason, another might be a greater divide between Mussolini and Hitler.

How can for instance von Kluge get command of HG Nord? von Leeb having a spectacular disagreement with Hitler is one way, another being medical reasons. Von Leeb having a heart attack or stroke is a possibility.

What would the effects be for capturing Leningrad?
1) Freeing up the 18th army and the Finnish Karelian army ~ 250-300.000 troops approximently
2) Easing up the logistical situation for HG Nord.
3) Both PG III and PG IV + DAK have less wear and tear (less combat and less moving back and forth for long distances) = more powerfull Operation Taifun.
 
It is an intriguing scenario I must say. What are the reasons for DAK not being sent? Italy doing better or worse in Cyrenaica/Egypt is an obvious reason, another might be a greater divide between Mussolini and Hitler.

How can for instance von Kluge get command of HG Nord? von Leeb having a spectacular disagreement with Hitler is one way, another being medical reasons. Von Leeb having a heart attack or stroke is a possibility.

What would the effects be for capturing Leningrad?
1) Freeing up the 18th army and the Finnish Karelian army ~ 250-300.000 troops approximently
2) Easing up the logistical situation for HG Nord.
3) Both PG III and PG IV + DAK have less wear and tear (less combat and less moving back and forth for long distances) = more powerfull Operation Taifun.


One idea I'm kicking around is that during the British seige of Tobruk during Operation Compass a Regia Marina task force sneaks up under radio silence (Italian ciphers where never broken and this is before they used Enigma machines and can open's significant elements of 7th armored and 4th indian in the open; which allows the garrison to break out and compels the british to retire back to the frontier, so that compass is a sharp tactical defeat instead of a complete strategic disaster. Hitler mobilizes Rommel's forces but then doesn't end up dispatching them since the Italians seem to get things under control (he instead gives them several dozen 88mm and 50mm guns plus a small LW taskforce to help interdict Malta)

Rommel's corps then participates in the invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece before being augmented to Army Group North as the 3rd panzer corps in 4th panzer army

Leeb had already been summarily retired by Hitler twice prior to Barbarossa, he is easy to get rid of... the question is which senior army commander gets bumped up (no panzer general had risen to army group command by that point so Kleist, Hoth, Hoeppner and Guderian are out, it probably boils down to Kluge, Weichs or Reichenau)

Rommel slides in on Manstein's right flank, and they commence the otl blitz to the dvina in 5 days... the leningrad military district responds with their otl panic and sends every able bodied person who can hold a gun to try and build a defensive line on the dvina... with 6 divisions on the river instead of just 3, Manstein and Rommel decide on an immediate crossing, punch through the poorly armed militia and envelope them; pinning them against the river and destroying them; effectively removing all forces between themselves in the city;
 
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