WI: Khazars convert to Islam

[rcduggan]

Okay, here's a what-if about my favorite group of [semi-]nomads.

Supposedly in 861, Khagan Bulan of the Khazars called for a religious debate in his capital of Atil to decide on a religion to convert to. He invited Cyril (Constantine then) and Methodius to represent Christianity, Yitzhak Ha Sangari to represent Judaism, and Farabi Ibn Kora to represent Islam.

The debate eventually led Bulan to become indecisive about which religion to choose. He opted to take the middle path and converted to Judaism... the rest is history.

So for the question: what if Constantine and Methodius failed to show up at the debate for whatever reason. The result of this is that Bulan converts to Islam and much of the Khazar population (those ethnic Khazars, not their subjects).

What would happen were the Khazars to convert? I could see them allying with the Abbasid Caliphate and possibly aiding the Arab attack on the Byzantine Empire? Up until the 860s the Arabs still held the initiative, so with Khazar financing and troop support, maybe the Abbasids could finally conquer Constantinople? Or at least get pretty close to it?

Another thought: would the Rus' become Muslim ITTL, or would the strong and hostile Khazar state to the south prompt them to become Christian?
On a related note, I wonder if the Muslims would have any influence in Scandinavia ITTL...

 

[Valdemar II]

Okay, here's a what-if about my favorite group of [semi-]nomads.

Supposedly in 861, Khagan Bulan of the Khazars called for a religious debate in his capital of Atil to decide on a religion to convert to. He invited Cyril (Constantine then) and Methodius to represent Christianity, Yitzhak Ha Sangari to represent Judaism, and Farabi Ibn Kora to represent Islam.

The debate eventually led Bulan to become indecisive about which religion to choose. He opted to take the middle path and converted to Judaism... the rest is history.

So for the question: what if Constantine and Methodius failed to show up at the debate for whatever reason. The result of this is that Bulan converts to Islam and much of the Khazar population (those ethnic Khazars, not their subjects).

What would happen were the Khazars to convert? I could see them allying with the Abbasid Caliphate and possibly aiding the Arab attack on the Byzantine Empire? Up until the 860s the Arabs still held the initiative, so with Khazar financing and troop support, maybe the Abbasids could finally conquer Constantinople? Or at least get pretty close to it?

Another thought: would the Rus' become Muslim ITTL, or would the strong and hostile Khazar state to the south prompt them to become Christian?
On a related note, I wonder if the Muslims would have any influence in Scandinavia ITTL...

It would have little religeous influence on the Rus and the Scandinavian choice of religeon, the ones who would be influenced is the Volga Bulgars, in OTL they converted to Islam as a hidden fuck you to their liegelords the Khazars, we could here see them converting to Othodoxsism, Judaism or even Buddhism instead.

 

[rcduggan]

It would have little religeous influence on the Rus and the Scandinavian choice of religeon, the ones who would be influenced is the Volgar Bulgars, in oTL they converted to Islam as a hidden fuck you to their liegelords the Khazars, we could here see them converting to Othodoxsism, Judaism or even Buddhism instead.

Buddhism would be a little out of the blue, seeing as how it had no influence in the region about this time.

I was pretty sure it wouldn't effect Scandinavia and the Rus', who would go Christian. With a smaller area of Byzantine influence, do you think it would be more likely for the Rus' to convert to Latin Christianity instead, or still Greek?

 

[Valdemar II]

Buddhism would be a little out of the blue, seeing as how it had no influence in the region about this time.

I was pretty sure it wouldn't effect Scandinavia and the Rus', who would go Christian. With a smaller area of Byzantine influence, do you think it would be more likely for the Rus' to convert to Latin Christianity instead, or still Greek?

They likely still go Greek, the area of Byzantine influence isn't that much smaller than in OTL.
The Buddhist thing, Buddhism had a strong influency in Central Asia at the time, and while one of the more unlikely choice, I could see the Volga Bulgars adopt it here. Don't forget before they adopted Islam in OTL, Islam had little influence in the region.

 

[Ran Exilis]

They likely still go Greek, the area of Byzantine influence isn't that much smaller than in OTL.
The Buddhist thing, Buddhism had a strong influency in Central Asia at the time, and while one of the more unlikely choice, I could see the Volga Bulgars adopt it here. Don't forget before they adopted Islam in OTL, Islam had little influence in the region.

Though Buddhism definitely had a lot of influence in Central Asia at the time, that influence did, IIRC, not extend much further west than the city states of the Tien Shan and the Tarim Basin - not since the late Sassanid age, that is.

There had been a fairly strong Buddhist presence in Ferghana and Transoxiana during the Parthian and early Sassanid ages, but to my knowledge, Buddhism lost a lot of influence in those regions during the Sassanid age.

I recall reading that the Chinese Buddhist pilgrim [SIZE=-1]Hiuen Tsang (sp?), who visited Samarkand around 600 AD or so, mentioned that he found only one functioning Buddhist temple in the city, and that only one monk resided in that temple at the time. Seeing as earlier pilgrims had mentioned several large temples with thousands of monks in Samarkand, the logical conclusion would be that there has appearantly been a general decline of Buddhism in the city during (late) Sassanid times.

And Samarkand was fairly close to the Tien Shan, so if Buddhist influence had already decreased that much in Samarkand by the beginning of the 7th century, then it is quite likely that Buddhism had lost even more influence in cities further to the west, like Bukhara, Khiva, and Khwarezm.

And aside from heavily promoting Zoroastrianism, the Sassanids also made several serious attempts at rooting out Buddhism, Christianity, various "heretical" Zoroastrian sects - at least among their Iranian subjects. That may very well have led to a general decline of Buddhism in western Central Asia.

..
But regardless of how successful the Sassanids were at Zoroastrianizing the Buddhists in Ferghana and Transoxiana, we're talking about a scenario with a POD in the latter half of the 9th century.

By that time, Transoxiana and Ferghana already were firmly in Muslim hands, with as a result that direct contact between the Buddhist parts of Central Asia and the Volga Bulgars and neighbouring non-Muslim peoples was no longer possible.
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[rcduggan]

Though Buddhism definitely had a lot of influence in Central Asia at the time, that influence did, IIRC, not extend much further west than the city states of the Tien Shan and the Tarim Basin - not since the late Sassanid age, that is.

There had been a fairly strong Buddhist presence in Ferghana and Transoxiana during the Parthian and early Sassanid ages, but to my knowledge, Buddhism lost a lot of influence in those regions during the Sassanid age.

I recall reading that the Chinese Buddhist pilgrim [SIZE=-1]Hiuen Tsang (sp?), who visited Samarkand around 600 AD or so, mentioned that he found only one functioning Buddhist temple in the city, and that only one monk resided in that temple at the time. Seeing as earlier pilgrims had mentioned several large temples with thousands of monks in Samarkand, the logical conclusion would be that there has appearantly been a general decline of Buddhism in the city during (late) Sassanid times.

And Samarkand was fairly close to the Tien Shan, so if Buddhist influence had already decreased that much in Samarkand by the beginning of the 7th century, then it is quite likely that Buddhism had lost even more influence in cities further to the west, like Bukhara, Khiva, and Khwarezm.

And aside from heavily promoting Zoroastrianism, the Sassanids also made several serious attempts at rooting out Buddhism, Christianity, various "heretical" Zoroastrian sects - at least among their Iranian subjects. That may very well have led to a general decline of Buddhism in western Central Asia.

..
But regardless of how successful the Sassanids were at Zoroastrianizing the Buddhists in Ferghana and Transoxiana, we're talking about a scenario with a POD in the latter half of the 9th century.

By that time, Transoxiana and Ferghana already were firmly in Muslim hands, with as a result that direct contact between the Buddhist parts of Central Asia and the Volga Bulgars and neighbouring non-Muslim peoples was no longer possible.
[/SIZE]

Good points, I was 99% sure it wouldn't be Buddhism. I wonder if any Rus' would convert to Judaism? Maybe some who trade down the Volga who come into contact with the Volga Bulgars, if they hypothetically convert to Judaism?