In 1531 Katherine of Aragon was exiled from court and lived the rest of her life in different castles, while Anne Boleyn was hailed as the new queen in all but name (and became officially so in 1533). Both women greatly hated each other and all the other stood for. So what if both of them died of some non-suspicious illness in 1531? Not so implausible as IOTL they died half a year apart anyway. This butterflies away Anne's queenship and daughter Elizabeth. What else does it change?
WI: Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn both died in 1531.
- Thread starter ordinarylittleme
- Start date
They both died of illness at the same time lol, that's the whole POD
As Catherine did IOTL, but that didn't stop Chapuys from accusing them of poison, did it? So it has to be very clearly the cause of an illness, which is why I said an outbreak of the Sweat.
Emphasis on at the same time. IOTL they died half a year apart. Now the suspicion could be that BOTH women with claims to being Henry's queen were conveniently "disposed" of. The reliable old Sweat works
Wasn't the sweat epidemic a couple years earlier? Maybe 1528 should be their death date.
I think if they both die, Henry would make a foreign match. Possibly with a French proxy like Mary of Guise, Mary of Bourbon or Isabella of Navarre. I doubt he would consider an imperial alliance, and even if he did I'm not sure who he could marry. All the brides that Charles V could offer are either too old (and therefore already married) or too young (Henry wanted a son ASAP, so his second bride is going to be at least 14 or 15).
I think if they both die, Henry would make a foreign match. Possibly with a French proxy like Mary of Guise, Mary of Bourbon or Isabella of Navarre. I doubt he would consider an imperial alliance, and even if he did I'm not sure who he could marry. All the brides that Charles V could offer are either too old (and therefore already married) or too young (Henry wanted a son ASAP, so his second bride is going to be at least 14 or 15).
Look, even if the die in the exact same moment, people are going to get the news at different times. Henry’s going to get the news at different times.
And even if they understand it happened on the same day (which will be hard travel time slowing the messengers) the likelihood of them understanding one didn’t die a couple hours before the other is very low.
So, yes it does matter who died first.
They die on the same day, mate, that's the POD. It doesn't matter if Henry gets the news at different times because even he can understand when the messenger explains it's on the same day. Poison is not really a plausible concept if both are dead because there is nobody who wanted both dead.
The odds of the same messenger bringing news of both deaths is infinitesimal. And the order he gets the news will determine how he views the deaths. Even if he gets clear information later, he's not likely to change his mind. People don't change their minds easily, Henry more so than usual.
For example: Henry gets news Anne has died suddenly. He is certainly going to think she was poisoned and most likely will think Catherine had something to do with it. Even when he gets news of Catherine's death later, this is not likely to change his mind. It might even 'confirm' it for him; he could think it's divine retribution.
There would be tons of people who'd want both dead: someone who realizes Catherine won't be able to give birth to a son and wants England to have an heir but doesn't think Anne is good enough; someone who wants to marry Henry themselves; a crazy person who thinks God has told them to kill both of them; or many other reasons.
And if it was the reverse and Katherine's death reaches him first...?
I wonder, though, what he'll do now. His wife is dead but the woman he pursued for years is also dead. Mary is still his only heir...
Then, that's a sign from God and Anne's death is a poisoning from his enemies. Henry was very good at crafting a narrative that suited him. As I said: either way ORDER MATTERS.
Well you have shown that the order of the deaths does not matter. For the sake of it let's say both women are struck down by lightning simultaneously in front of Henry and the entire court's eyes so he can't spin any bullshit from it. Anyway, Mary is still his only heir, there will never be an Elizabeth I, perhaps Jane Seymour becomes queen #2 and has Edward VI earlier, since she is younger she could survive?
It wasn't a question of being younger, she was only in her late 20s after all. It was Henry massively fucking up by not letting the experienced midwives in and only allowing the royal physicians who don't know the first thing about giving birth to attend to Jane.
Well. RIP, Jane, after the first pregnancy you're going to be gone regardless then. Without the stain of executing his wife on his record, could he snap up a Catholic princess next?
I'm a little confused, I would say I demonstrated that order definitely matters.
That's ASB.
Look, it's obvious you have a particular idea of how you want this to go, so why don't you just write your own timeline instead of pumping everyone else for details.
No - my only POD is that both women die simultaneously in such a way that nobody suspects poison or the like - everything else is up to anyone that responds, which is why I am not writing my own timeline
The problem is there are two parts to the POD, and the likelihood of that happening is really really low, as myself and others have pointed out.
The order only really matters if they can chalk it up to poison. If Anne and Katherine dye of something obvious and irrefutable in 1531 (smallpox, sweating sickness, horse accidents ect.) then the main response is going to be on both sides of the debate that this is God's punishment. It's not impossible and if you can't look at the deaths as anything else then it truly doesn't matter. What matters is the aftermath.
In likelihood, the Pope immediately goes into reconciliation mode, as do the Hapsburgs, and Henry starts getting offered pretty much every available Princess in Europe to take over as Queen. He's free, fun and forty. Unfortunately, there's very few available, of age Princesses available that make sense. Mary of Austria would make sense except she doesn't want to remarry and no one is forcing her. Eleanor of Austria is recently remarried, her daughter is too young, as are pretty much every Hapsburg related candidates until you start getting into the weeds of people like Marie of Brandenburg-Kulmbach or Maria of Saxony, both way too far removed to count. The only unmarried female Hapsburg is Charles' illegitimate daughter with Germaine of Foix, but she's (a) a bastard and (b) not really acknowledged.
The French can offer Marie of Bourbon and Marie of Guise, but there's not really any major Princesses they're going to give him. Madeleine is too young and fragile, Margaret is far too young. Henry needs a grown woman, not a young Princess. Funnily, Anne and Amelia of Cleves make the most sense if he doesn't want a French bride. Now, that's assuming Henry goes into "get an heir" mode and not "my dead girlfriend" mode. If he goes into full blown mourning, Maria of Portugal is probably going to be the Hapsburg choice, or one of the Danish girls (Christina is more likely as Dorothea is needed to retake/set in stone the Danish stuff).
Outside of marriage stuff, Thomas Boleyn might get his prestige anyway as a representative of the woman Henry lost, and it might be funny if Henry just marries Mary Boleyn because she reminds him of her sister. Or retakes her as a mistress. Also Mary Tudor is likely still legitimate, but you never know with Henry. He might want her declared a bastard just because she represents the stuff that held him back from loving Anne.
In likelihood, the Pope immediately goes into reconciliation mode, as do the Hapsburgs, and Henry starts getting offered pretty much every available Princess in Europe to take over as Queen. He's free, fun and forty. Unfortunately, there's very few available, of age Princesses available that make sense. Mary of Austria would make sense except she doesn't want to remarry and no one is forcing her. Eleanor of Austria is recently remarried, her daughter is too young, as are pretty much every Hapsburg related candidates until you start getting into the weeds of people like Marie of Brandenburg-Kulmbach or Maria of Saxony, both way too far removed to count. The only unmarried female Hapsburg is Charles' illegitimate daughter with Germaine of Foix, but she's (a) a bastard and (b) not really acknowledged.
The French can offer Marie of Bourbon and Marie of Guise, but there's not really any major Princesses they're going to give him. Madeleine is too young and fragile, Margaret is far too young. Henry needs a grown woman, not a young Princess. Funnily, Anne and Amelia of Cleves make the most sense if he doesn't want a French bride. Now, that's assuming Henry goes into "get an heir" mode and not "my dead girlfriend" mode. If he goes into full blown mourning, Maria of Portugal is probably going to be the Hapsburg choice, or one of the Danish girls (Christina is more likely as Dorothea is needed to retake/set in stone the Danish stuff).
Outside of marriage stuff, Thomas Boleyn might get his prestige anyway as a representative of the woman Henry lost, and it might be funny if Henry just marries Mary Boleyn because she reminds him of her sister. Or retakes her as a mistress. Also Mary Tudor is likely still legitimate, but you never know with Henry. He might want her declared a bastard just because she represents the stuff that held him back from loving Anne.
Your first paragraph. Thank you. Anyway, Henry has no reason to declare his daughter, Mary, illegitimate and doing so would be idiotic as he has no other legitimate child. He will ship her off to be married ASAP instead. Mary of Austria is going to be forced to marry Henry will-she-nil-she, and Anne of Cleves is too young (she would be 15/16, unable to have kids yet). No way will he marry Mary Boleyn who was also the mistress of Francis I and "used goods". He might take her into his bed but not as his wife.
It's unlikely, but Henry didn't always make the most logical choices, even in his own life. But it's unlikely.
As for the others, Mary of Austria OTL refused to even consider remarrying, despite the various attempts until the early 1530s to marry her off. Anne/Amalia of Cleves are probably the eldest choices, and considering it'll take a year or so to iron out, a 17 year old bride is not unusual for the time. But I'd say if Henry can't have Anne, he'll want someone prestigious. As for Mary Boleyn, it's a long long long shot, but it's certainly not insane for him to rebound with her and marybe even marry her. It'd be dramatic for sure tho.