WI: John of Gaunt Has More Kids With Constance of Castile?

Kellan Sullivan

An idea I was discussing with @Zulfurium, namely what if John of Gaunt and Constance of Castile had had more kids. Katherine, likely as not would not end up marrying the king of Castile with a surviving brother much less two, since her not being the only child of her parents would mean that the Trastamaras don't amalgamate the line of Pedro the Cruel TTL.

John, Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m: 1371 Constanca of Castile (1354-1394)

Katherine (b.1372)
John (1375-1375)
Edward (b.1379)
Peter (b.1382)
Mary (b.1383)

@The Professor @isabella @VVD0D95 @curlyhairedhippie @Kurt_Steiner
@Jan Olbracht @krieger
 

Kellan Sullivan

vandevere said:
If that happened, it's very likely it would Butterfly Gaunt's marriage to Katherine Swynford, and that would Butterfly the Beauforts too, and that would definitely Butterfly the Tudors too...
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VVD0D95 said:
Well the Beaufort would still be there they’d just be illegitimate
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FalconHonour said:
It wouldn't butterfly the Beauforts. They were all born prior to John's marriage to Katherine. They wouldn't be legitimised, true - which would mean they wouldn't make such good marriages, but they would all still be around...
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The Professor said:
As others have said the Beauforts don't get legitimised. However if they are as useful as OTL they could still end up ennobled and tied to the various English houses, just not the throne.
As regards the throne, Edward and perhaps Peter of Lancaster will contest for both/either Leon and Castile, which could have interesting butterflies there. Especially as regards any future unions with Aragon, Portugal, or Navarre.
Failure but survival will bring them back to England and impact on the House of Lancaster even if not on the throne.
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Jan Olbracht said:
If Catherine of Lancaster is not going to Castile (as she'd be not main heiress of Peter the Cruel) what is going to happen with her?
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Kellan Sullivan

Am I crazy to think that there might be a push for Katherine of Lancaster to marry Richard II (she'd essentially be a foreign princess) or the duke of Brittany (Edward III's original plans for Philippa of Lancaster involved her marrying the duke of Brittany as his third wife).

Or maybe a double match between Carlos el Malo's eldest son, Carlos el Noble, and Katherine, with Juana of Navarre for Richard II.
 

Jan Olbracht

Also, it is interesting what would happen, assuming Bolingbroke is still exiled from England-it is possible (although not given) that one of his half brothers would side with Richard II, hoping that king would give Bolingbroke's estates to him.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Jan Olbracht said:
Also, it is interesting what would happen, assuming Bolingbroke is still exiled from England-it is possible (although not given) that one of his half brothers would side with Richard II, hoping that king would give Bolingbroke's estates to him.
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Perhaps. But would he not be more interested in Spain?
 
The Professor

The Professor

Kellan Sullivan said:
Am I crazy to think that there might be a push for Katherine of Lancaster to marry Richard II (she'd essentially be a foreign princess) or the duke of Brittany (Edward III's original plans for Philippa of Lancaster involved her marrying the duke of Brittany as his third wife).

Or maybe a double match between Carlos el Malo's eldest son, Carlos el Noble, and Katherine, with Juana of Navarre for Richard II.
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Katherine would probably already be married by the time Anne of Bohemia has died. Mary's a possibility here though.
Jan Olbracht said:
Also, it is interesting what would happen, assuming Bolingbroke is still exiled from England-it is possible (although not given) that one of his half brothers would side with Richard II, hoping that king would give Bolingbroke's estates to him.
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If he's not in Hispania supporting the claim to the thrones, maybe. It seems more likely that Bolingbroke joins his halfbrothers there before accruing credit to return to England.
 
The Professor

The Professor

Kellan Sullivan said:
Yup. That is pretty boring :extremelyhappy:
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A more fun one would be still failing but setting up interesting butterflies.
E.g. they're still trying when Bolingbroke takes the crown and so the Beaufort are only legitimised after they die but explicitly placed later in the royal succession or not at all thereby removing both Henry Tudor and Buckingham from contention against the Yorks.
Or they fail but leave behind a daughter who marries a local noble and their son successfully becomes King of Leon.
Etc etc.
 

Kellan Sullivan

The Professor said:
A more fun one would be still failing but setting up interesting butterflies.
E.g. they're still trying when Bolingbroke takes the crown and so the Beaufort are only legitimised after they die but explicitly placed later in the royal succession or not at all thereby removing both Henry Tudor and Buckingham from contention against the Yorks.
Or they fail but leave behind a daughter who marries a local noble and their son successfully becomes King of Leon.
Etc etc.
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Wouldn't the Beauforts succession/legitimacy worries be dependent on John of Gaunt still remarrying to Kathryn Swynford. And would he do so TTL?
 

krieger

Banned
Kellan Sullivan said:
f John of Gaunt and Constance of Castile had had more kids. Katherine, likely as not would not end up marrying the king of Castile with a surviving brother much less two, since her not being the only child of her parents
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Maybe Gaunt's attempt to take Castile is more succesful? One could imagine that Gaunt having sons would gather more support in his invasion of Leon in 1387, so his bid for the throne can last longer and evolve in "War of the Roses 1.0 - Castilian Boogalooo". Catherine would be married to someone having possibility and willing to support Gaunt in his bid, so I suggest Martin the Younger - 2 years her junior and heir to the throne of Aragon.
 

Kellan Sullivan

krieger said:
Maybe Gaunt's attempt to take Castile is more succesful? One could imagine that Gaunt having sons would gather more support in his invasion of Leon in 1387, so his bid for the throne can last longer and evolve in "War of the Roses 1.0 - Castilian Boogalooo". Catherine would be married to someone having possibility and willing to support Gaunt in his bid, so I suggest Martin the Younger - 2 years her junior and heir to the throne of Aragon.
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What happens to the queen of Sicily (Martin's OTL wife then)?
 

isabella

krieger said:
Maybe Gaunt's attempt to take Castile is more succesful? One could imagine that Gaunt having sons would gather more support in his invasion of Leon in 1387, so his bid for the throne can last longer and evolve in "War of the Roses 1.0 - Castilian Boogalooo". Catherine would be married to someone having possibility and willing to support Gaunt in his bid, so I suggest Martin the Younger - 2 years her junior and heir to the throne of Aragon.
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That is a pretty likely scenario....

Kellan Sullivan said:
What happens to the queen of Sicily (Martin's OTL wife then)?
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Maybe Gaunt‘s second son will marry her?
 

isabella

kasumigenx said:
Actually, Bolingbroke is similar in age with Maria of Sicily...the two can marry.
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That will leave his OTL wife either to the convent to which Thomas of Gloucester (husband of her elder sister) wanted consign her or married to Edward of York, three years younger than her
 

Kurt_Steiner

Gaunt's invasion of Castille is doomed to fail. He had little support in Castille and France would love the chance given by the truce of 1389 to support Trastámara. And the longer that Gaunt remains in England, the better for Richard II and the worse for Gaunt's powerbase there.
 

isabella

Kurt_Steiner said:
Gaunt's invasion of Castille is doomed to fail. He had little support in Castille and France would love the chance given by the truce of 1389 to support Trastámara. And the longer that Gaunt remains in England, the better for Richard II and the worse for Gaunt's powerbase there.
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You do not believe who a surviving son (or more) by Constance would being him more support than OTL?
 

Kurt_Steiner

isabella said:
You do not believe who a surviving son (or more) by Constance would being him more support than OTL?
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Of course not. The Petristas were on the loosing side since Montiel. Even worse, Gaunt has nothing to offer the Trastámara's followers to change sides than they don't already have. Had this been attempted fifteen years early, it might had worked, but by 1389 it was too late. Gaunt must had been going nuts if he thought he had a chance.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Kurt_Steiner said:
Of course not. The Petristas were on the loosing side since Montiel. Even worse, Gaunt has nothing to offer the Trastámara's followers to change sides than they don't already have. Had this been attempted fifteen years early, it might had worked, but by 1389 it was too late. Gaunt must had been going nuts if he thought he had a chance.
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Well, the POD is in the mid 1370s (~15 years before), so might that affect things?
 
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