WI John II the Good was killed at Poitiers?

[Tonifranz]

In 1356, the French lost the battle of Poitiers against the Prince of Wales, Edward the Black Prince. It was a disaster. But more than that, it was a national catastrophe since it led to the captivity of John II, the ransom, and the Treaty of Bretigny.

Assume than the dauphin escapes early. But John II, instead of becoming captive, get's killed by a stray arrow or such before the Black Prince could prevent it.

So John II is dead, and Charles V becomes king eight years earlier than OTL.

How does the Hundred Years War go for France and England with no captive King John and no Treaty of Bretigny? Does England lose the Edwardian War?

 

[VVD0D95]

In 1356, the French lost the battle of Poitiers against the Prince of Wales, Edward the Black Prince. It was a disaster. But more than that, it was a national catastrophe since it led to the captivity of John II, the ransom, and the Treaty of Bretigny.

Assume than the dauphin escapes early. But John II, instead of becoming captive, get's killed by a stray arrow or such before the Black Prince could prevent it.

So John II is dead, and Charles V becomes king eight years earlier than OTL.

How does the Hundred Years War go for France and England with no captive King John and no Treaty of Bretigny? Does England lose the Edwardian War?

Hmm, well is it possible for Charles V to force a position he does not have? France is in the brink after Poitiers, I'm sure England would push on from there?

 

[Tonifranz]

Hmm, well is it possible for Charles V to force a position he does not have? France is in the brink after Poitiers, I'm sure England would push on from there?

Well, the reason that France was at the brink at Poitiers was that John II was captured and was held for an extorbitant ransom, 2 million ecus, later 4 million (after John II held that 2 million was too little for a ransom of a King of France).

That led to all sorts of trouble, including the Jacquerie and the Treaty of Bretigny, which was a consequence of an absentee king.

If Charles V becomes king in 1356, he would be 18. Charles V won the Caroline war, forcing the English from all their gains in Bretigny, and at the end, only Bayonne, and Calais and Bordeaux were in English lands.

Here, the Edwardian War won't be ended by Bretigny, and Charles V, chastised by the defeat at Poitiers, would avoid battle, and furthermore, would have more money as the French would not have to pay any ransom to the king of England.

 

[Matteo]

Well, the reason that France was at the brink at Poitiers was that John II was captured and was held for an extorbitant ransom, 2 million ecus, later 4 million (after John II held that 2 million was too little for a ransom of a King of France).

That led to all sorts of trouble, including the Jacquerie and the Treaty of Bretigny, which was a consequence of an absentee king.

If Charles V becomes king in 1356, he would be 18. Charles V won the Caroline war, forcing the English from all their gains in Bretigny, and at the end, only Bayonne, and Calais and Bordeaux were in English lands.

Here, the Edwardian War won't be ended by Bretigny, and Charles V, chastised by the defeat at Poitiers, would avoid battle, and furthermore, would have more money as the French would not have to pay any ransom to the king of England.

That's the point. Considering that future Charles V was already a young adult and that he was a brilliant Statesman, the death of his incompetent father at Poitiers was the best that could happen for the french side and the worst scenario for the english/Plantagenet side.

 

[jlk7e]

I'm not sure how this changes much. By the time of Charles V's death he's reconquered most of the post-Poitiers English conquests anyway. This might make that happen a bit earlier, I guess? It doesn't seem like it's going to change all that much in even the medium run.

 

[Tonifranz]

I'm not sure how this changes much. By the time of Charles V's death he's reconquered most of the post-Poitiers English conquests anyway. This might make that happen a bit earlier, I guess? It doesn't seem like it's going to change all that much in even the medium run.

Well, there's no Treaty of Bretigny for one, no ransom for John II, no Jacquerie, no eight years on an absentee king, and eight more years of competent rule for France. That would leave serious effects, not to mention butterflies, especially in Castille. Would the Black Prince interfere in the War of the Two Peters if the war in France was not yet won? Maybe it would actually butterfly his death in 1376 and actually rule England until Richard II will grow up.

What would be the effect if England would outright lose the first stage of the Hundred Years War (since the Edwardian and Caroline Wars would be merged into one, instead of it being separated into a 9 year truce from 1360 to 1369?)?

 

[VVD0D95]

Well, there's no Treaty of Bretigny for one, no ransom for John II, no Jacquerie, no eight years on an absentee king, and eight more years of competent rule for France. That would leave serious effects, not to mention butterflies, especially in Castille. Would the Black Prince interfere in the War of the Two Peters if the war in France was not yet won? Maybe it would actually butterfly his death in 1376 and actually rule England until Richard II will grow up.

What would be the effect if England would outright lose the first stage of the Hundred Years War (since the Edwardian and Caroline Wars would be merged into one, instead of it being separated into a 9 year truce from 1360 to 1369?)?

Less enthusiasm for the war with France? Already during the latter part of Edward III's reign public opinion was shifting due to heavy taxes and shizz. Also if the Black Prince does not get involved in Castille, and subsequently lives longer, that probably means Gaunt does not get any or as much influence.

 

[kasumigenx]

What about Gaunt marrying Joanne of Naples as his first wife, he could use Provence as a base for the English Faction of the HYW.

 

[VVD0D95]

What about Gaunt marrying Joanne of Naples as his first wife, he could use Provence as a base for the English Faction of the HYW.

When would this occur? Also, if she is his fist wife then the house of lancaster is never truly in existence?