WI: Jiang Qing (Madame Mao) takes over PR China after Mao's death
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Ew please, no.
If you want to, you might have to kill Zhou Enlai.
*but he's the best Chinese premier ever*
TinyTartar
Banned
More conflict with basically every single neighbor. Jiang Qing was not known for her tact.
Human rights abuses would be major, and I don't know if the party would stand for it over a long period of time due to her notorious lack of respect for elder revolutionaries or technocratic figures. A second cultural revolution might be in the works as a way for her to gain more steady control, but whether it would succeed or not is an interesting question.
On the foreign relations front, I'd expect conflict with Vietnam and more fallout with the Soviets, who she was known to privately detest as revisionist with a privileged class.
She'd be a lot like Mao in terms of ideological beliefs, but without his tact and survival skills.
Human rights abuses would be major, and I don't know if the party would stand for it over a long period of time due to her notorious lack of respect for elder revolutionaries or technocratic figures. A second cultural revolution might be in the works as a way for her to gain more steady control, but whether it would succeed or not is an interesting question.
On the foreign relations front, I'd expect conflict with Vietnam and more fallout with the Soviets, who she was known to privately detest as revisionist with a privileged class.
She'd be a lot like Mao in terms of ideological beliefs, but without his tact and survival skills.
Well, dead chinese, lots of them. Purge after purge and starvation after starvation. Would be much like modern day North Korea albiet much more populous.
China (aka the mainland) would be smaller than modern day, Jiang Qing would probably want to have more justifications to rule, by saying that "imperialist powers still held chinese land"
China (aka the mainland) would be smaller than modern day, Jiang Qing would probably want to have more justifications to rule, by saying that "imperialist powers still held chinese land"
Maybe it's because of what i'm studying but where do you get the idea Mao has tact? Maybe in before there was a PRC, but afterwards Chinese diplomacy was anything but tactful, at least with other communist nations.
TinyTartar
Banned
Tact is perhaps the wrong word for it. A canny ability to control the party with a combination of brute force and professed ideological affinity with whatever wing was convenient for him at the time.
He was not tactful, true.
He did however have notable survival skills, and Jiang Qing did not show any indication of this.
IMO, Jiang Qing might take over shortly after Mao's death, but her lack of political ability might mean that the rest of the Gang of Four might turn against her. With this inter-Maoist conflict, I can see the reformists picking up speed.
Perhaps we end up with a democratic China?
I don't know if the Gang of Four could afford to do that, I think at this point both Vietnam and North Korea both of which had rocky relations with China anyway are China only friends maybe Albania for what their worth. Would the gang of Four really risk having serious internal struggle after Mao's way of resolving them greatly screwed over China.
With Jiang Qing's less politically savvy mind, there's a possibility for the four to disagree on some policy (it's inevitable, though the less politically savvy mind makes things worse). Jiang Qing might threaten to dismiss the member, and the rest of the Gang bands around the member. Cue fight.
Asami
Banned
I touched on this in my timeline, but instead of her directly succeeding her husband, she came after the People's Liberation Army threw Deng Xiaoping out of office. I wouldn't say it's the greatest TL ever, but it's something or another. 
RousseauX
Donor
Zhou Enali was not particularly relevant by the time the mid-70s, his opening to America was his last great act, he was sidelined, ill, and didn't play too big of a role in Chinese politics afterwards.
RousseauX
Donor
Absolutely, neither Vietnam nor North Korea are likely to march into Beijing and arrest anybody for struggle sessions.
Jiang Qing however might very well decide that one of her friends needs to be purged to cement her own power, that gives a lot of impetuous for them to act: fast. Just as Hua did OTL.
RousseauX
Donor
I touched on this in my timeline, but instead of her directly succeeding her husband, she came after the People's Liberation Army threw Deng Xiaoping out of office. I wouldn't say it's the greatest TL ever, but it's something or another.
Why?
After Lin died the PLA hated the gang of four because they were upstarts and who involved with persecuting many of the more popular revolutionary veterans and soldiers. Deng OTOH was "one of them", he had led the PLA in some of the most intense conflicts during the Sino-Japanese War and Civil War. The PLA is far, far more likely to purge the GoF and put Deng in power than vice-versa.
RousseauX
Donor
The problem is how does she do this?
She isn't even the most likely person within the gang of four to take power (that would be Wang HongWen), she is hated by the rank and file party members, the PLA, pretty anybody with power in the country in 1976. Anyone who doesn't hate her at least feared that she find an excuse to purge them.
The only power base she did have was Shanghai and its militias, but it's Shanghai vs the whole country.
The post-Mao power struggle was very much a struggle of personality vs personality because institutional power of the CCP had being so wrecked by the cultural revolution. Jiang Qing's weakness is that she lacks the prestige other veteran revolutionaries have, is too hated, and frankly isn't terribly politically astute.
RousseauX
Donor
Why not?
The fact that Deng can invade Vietnam and still retain the support of almost every SE Asian country showed that he is a good diplomat, the fact that he is on good terms with Reagan showed that he is at least tactful as Gorbachev.
Meh, Zhou remains my favorite because of what he did during the Cultural Revolution.
I definitely agree on this point.
Yeah, the PLA did like Deng.
SHANGHAI LIKED JIANG?
WHOA, MY MOM LIKED JIANG?
NO WAY!!!
My mom was in the protests against the CCP at the same time as Tiananmen, I don't know if she would like Jiang very much
Deng is very politically savvy, after all.
RousseauX
Donor
Shanghai was the radical's base of operation having taken power there during the January storm in 1967.
The average citizen may or may not have liked them, but the radicals were the establishment in the city and commanded the loyalty of militias. There were talks about going down like the Paris Commune after the gang were purged.
The average citizen may or may not have liked them, but the radicals were the establishment in the city and commanded the loyalty of militias. There were talks about going down like the Paris Commune after the gang were purged.
Being a border nation during the Sino-Soviet split meant you had to play your cards right, if you felt like you had to. Both North Korea and North Vietnam had to act very delicately on what they said to the Soviets and the Chinese. For example, Le Duan who took power Vietnam from Ho Chi Minh and was much more belligerent than Ho in terms of action against the South and leaned more towards the Chinese. Still he got chewed out by Deng just calling for the Soviet Union a second motherland. After the death I don't there that many relationships that can be salvaged, if any of that can or even possibly happen with Jiang Qing at the helm.
On the Sino-Soviet split in general. It essentially became a with us or against us mentality with the Chinese. If you back the Soviets you where a revisionist, or deviationist if you stood with China. granted very few communist nations had a good reason to stand with China save North Korea and North Vietnam and Albania. Although only North Korea would last out of the 3.
Apparently, Mao's weak choice for successor (incompetent bureaucrat Hua) is the main reason for Deng finally ending up in power. If he had enjoyed a better relationship with Jiang in his last years instead of calling her as toxic as a scorpion he might have decided for choosibg and strengthening her as his successor.
Have Wang Hongwen as premier after Zhou's death in 1976 and Jiang Qing become CCP-chairwoman in sep. 1976. Maybe it helped, if Kang Sheng didn't die in 1975, rather living a few more years to help Jiang consolidate her power. Maybe Chen Boda could reemerge to spotlight aiding the Gang of Four in a showdown against the Deng fraction. All this must remain peaceful, needing someone more leftist in the military than Ye Jianying who simply remains in a lower rank and of course submits to Chairman Mao's will.
Under these premises, Jiang Qing could indeed emerge as a relatively strong successor. To remain in power, she however has to turn just a tiny bit more pragmatic and show that she can actually govern. Would really be interesting to see. I find these clumsy determinisms that she somehow must inevitably turn into a Chinese version of Pol Pot simply absurd. Even as a heartless cultural revolutionary, she oversaw a movement that did not stop the Chinese population from growing from over 700m to over 800m (according to UN Chinese population statistics) between 1965 and 1970. Despite this baby boom and some GPCR chaos life expectancy, rural health care, etc. continued to increase or at least not decrease and this trend might likely increase after Mao's death.
Struggle sessions and some dead counterrevolutionaries here and there are likely to continue, but killing-fielding around in China absolutely NO. I see no sufficient reason for believing she was that crazy, Kang Shengs influence could be bad however.
It would be interesting to see what her views on population growth were and whether something like one-child policy could be implemented under her. My guess is no. Population control existed in the later Mao years too but it was not strictly implemented and more like a two-child policy. She could have opted for that.
Have Wang Hongwen as premier after Zhou's death in 1976 and Jiang Qing become CCP-chairwoman in sep. 1976. Maybe it helped, if Kang Sheng didn't die in 1975, rather living a few more years to help Jiang consolidate her power. Maybe Chen Boda could reemerge to spotlight aiding the Gang of Four in a showdown against the Deng fraction. All this must remain peaceful, needing someone more leftist in the military than Ye Jianying who simply remains in a lower rank and of course submits to Chairman Mao's will.
Under these premises, Jiang Qing could indeed emerge as a relatively strong successor. To remain in power, she however has to turn just a tiny bit more pragmatic and show that she can actually govern. Would really be interesting to see. I find these clumsy determinisms that she somehow must inevitably turn into a Chinese version of Pol Pot simply absurd. Even as a heartless cultural revolutionary, she oversaw a movement that did not stop the Chinese population from growing from over 700m to over 800m (according to UN Chinese population statistics) between 1965 and 1970. Despite this baby boom and some GPCR chaos life expectancy, rural health care, etc. continued to increase or at least not decrease and this trend might likely increase after Mao's death.
Struggle sessions and some dead counterrevolutionaries here and there are likely to continue, but killing-fielding around in China absolutely NO. I see no sufficient reason for believing she was that crazy, Kang Shengs influence could be bad however.
It would be interesting to see what her views on population growth were and whether something like one-child policy could be implemented under her. My guess is no. Population control existed in the later Mao years too but it was not strictly implemented and more like a two-child policy. She could have opted for that.
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