WI: Jewish instead of Christian Europe

[Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck]

For some reason Christianity never rises and the main religion of Europe becomes some preachy brand of Judaism at the same time as IOTl (4th century)

Obviously there is no Catholic Church. Rather, there is a network of synagogues and yeshivas teaching the Torah in Hebrew in the Western Roman Empire. The high language of Europe becomes Hebrew.

Antisemitism would be far less prevelant with numerous branches of Judaism being treated at most as heretics rather than disbelievers.

What else?

 

[riggerrob]

Do you mean like that pesky, Jewish, itinerate preacher named Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

 

[ike225]

For some reason Christianity never rises and the main religion of Europe becomes some preachy brand of Judaism at the same time as IOTl (4th century)

Obviously there is no Catholic Church. Rather, there is a network of synagogues and yeshivas teaching the Torah in Hebrew in the Western Roman Empire. The high language of Europe becomes Hebrew.

Antisemitism would be far less prevelant with numerous branches of Judaism being treated at most as heretics rather than disbelievers.

What else?

How would you have that "brand" of Judaism spread through Europe? Because the Roman Empire sure as hell wouldn't promote it. The Catholic Church benefited from the Roman Administration to spread

 

[Mitchell Hundred]

A preachy Judaism looking to convert as many people as they could would not be recognizable as Judaism as we know it. In fact it would emulate early Christianity pretty well, when the divisions between Christianity and Judaism were less pronounced.

One of the given reasons for proselytizing among Christians and perhaps Islam (I'm not 100% on that one), is to bring salvation in the afterlife to as many as possible. This has never been a tenet of Judaism.

 

[Jürgen]

Honestly outside a few theological points it would pretty much look like Christian Europe.

 

[Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck]

Maybe a starting point would be to have a different preacher other than Jesus.

Or have Paul of Tarsus (or his equivalent) that is much less rooted in the Greco-Roman and more in the conservative Jewish tradition. Such a religion generally would not consider it's founder to be God and it's holy book would be considered supplementary to the Torah or a part of It.

 

[walmart]

ASB Judaism is too ethnocentric for a conversion

 

[President Jack Kemp]

Yeah, the problem is that Judaism is broadly speaking an ethnic religion - a set of codes and practices applicable to the Jewish ethnic group. There is the predominant idea that although Jewish people are the chosen people of God, gentiles are bound instead by the Seven Laws of Noah, which were a covenant made with all of humanity - and thus that 'righteous gentiles' are assured of their place in the world to come. Although converts were always accepted from the beginning of recorded Jewish history, Orthodox Judaism even today often discouraged proselytizing. Some rabbis reject potential converts three times and only accept them if they still remain keen to convert after these rejections.

All this means that it's very hard to see Jewish leaders even wanting to convert the whole of Europe. Also, the stories of the Torah and Tanakh are 'rooted in the soil' - they are relevant specifically to the land of Israel, they lack the universalising impulses of the New Testament. A Jewish religion that did try to proselytize would probably be so different it could scarcely be called Jewish. (Of course this is probably a big part of how Christianity diverged from Judaism in the first place.)

The more interesting question IMO is what would have happened if Christianity had taken a more 'Jewish' course. I.e. if it had continued to require that Christian followers obeyed Jewish dietary laws, practised male circumcision etc.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

A preachy Judaism looking to convert as many people as they could would not be recognizable as Judaism as we know it. In fact it would emulate early Christianity pretty well, when the divisions between Christianity and Judaism were less pronounced.

One of the given reasons for proselytizing among Christians and perhaps Islam (I'm not 100% on that one), is to bring salvation in the afterlife to as many as possible. This has never been a tenet of Judaism.

I wonder if a more widespread, proselytizing would place more emphasis on the afterlife generally?

 

[FleetMac]

Not sure if this counts per the OP, but what about the development of a NotChristian (or perhaps a non-Pauline variant thereof) sect with explicit 'dual-covenant' theology that seeks to expand the status of Righteous Gentiles under the Seven Noahide Laws into an organized doctrinal faith? It avoids the difficulties of expanding Jewish religious constrictions to non-compatible venues while maintaining the core philosophy, eschatology, and moral salvationism of Judaism, while offering less friction points between the two sects.

The problem I see right off is that it couldn't consider itself to be true Judaism in the eyes of Israelites, lest it be labeled heresy. And then there's the problem of how it can spread in the Roman Empire, given that Christianity's OTL growth was arguably due to its sponsorship (and from an anti-Catholic POV, hijacking) by the Empire itself.

 

[ModusViv]

The more interesting question IMO is what would have happened if Christianity had taken a more 'Jewish' course. I.e. if it had continued to require that Christian followers obeyed Jewish dietary laws, practised male circumcision etc.

No bacon double-cheeseburgers. 😭 Maybe just restrict that part to the season of Lent or something?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

No bacon double-cheeseburgers. 😭 Maybe just restrict that part to the season of Lent or something?

Keeping dietary laws would make it problematic for that branch of Judaism to spread north of Mediterranean region. Just look what challenges Ashkenazi cuisine faced in Northern Europe, lots of poorer Jews were practically forced into vegetarianism due to these laws. In Mediterranean climate, where these laws were first created, it is far easier to keep it. In Northern Europe, where pork was cheapest meat, and easiest to produce, and main kind of fat used for cooking was butter or lard, as opposed to olive oil in Mediterranean region, these laws were way more problematic.

 

[raharris1973]

Keeping dietary laws would make it problematic for that branch of Judaism to spread north of Mediterranean region. Just look what challenges Ashkenazi cuisine faced in Northern Europe, lots of poorer Jews were practically forced into vegetarianism due to these laws. In Mediterranean climate, where these laws were first created, it is far easier to keep it. In Northern Europe, where pork was cheapest meat, and easiest to produce, and main kind of fat used for cooking was butter or lard, as opposed to olive oil in Mediterranean region, these laws were way more problematic.

Yet Ashkenazi Judaism eventually overtook all other Jewish communities in population and influence. By the time of the little ice age, the center of global Jewish life and Paradisus Judaeorum, was in ham, kielbasa and pork chop central, the chilly lands of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth! Jews survived and bred on a vegetarian diet supplemented with chicken soup I guess.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Yet Ashkenazi Judaism eventually overtook all other Jewish communities in population and influence. By the time of the little ice age, the center of global Jewish life and Paradisus Judaeorum, was in ham, kielbasa and pork chop central, the chilly lands of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth! Jews survived and bred on a vegetarian diet supplemented with chicken soup I guess.

And still were massively outnumbered by Christians and rarely were involved in farming. As their ancestors were not eating pork already when they came to Central Europe, they didn't need to give up ham. For local converts OTOH that would be obvious change for the worse.

 

[Walle Ras]

ASB Judaism is too ethnocentric for a conversion

I'm literally a Jewish convert. We also mass converted the hymarites. Its not impossible.

 

[Walle Ras]

Not sure if this counts per the OP, but what about the development of a NotChristian (or perhaps a non-Pauline variant thereof) sect with explicit 'dual-covenant' theology that seeks to expand the status of Righteous Gentiles under the Seven Noahide Laws into an organized doctrinal faith? It avoids the difficulties of expanding Jewish religious constrictions to non-compatible venues while maintaining the core philosophy, eschatology, and moral salvationism of Judaism, while offering less friction points between the two sects.

The problem I see right off is that it couldn't consider itself to be true Judaism in the eyes of Israelites, lest it be labeled heresy. And then there's the problem of how it can spread in the Roman Empire, given that Christianity's OTL growth was arguably due to its sponsorship (and from an anti-Catholic POV, hijacking) by the Empire itself.

Noachidism is already a thing and was prevelant in Rome, Christianity just assimulated the noachides, so have noachidism win.