WI: J. Edgar Hoover's secret files had been revealed to the public?

[Father Maryland]

Yep, the entire reason he and Melvin Purvis had their "falling-out" was because Purvis thought the FBI should actually concentrate on criminal activity whereas Hoover was always more interested in politics. Oddly enough most of the timelines I've read where Hoover actually gets his wish things don't turn out all that well for him as he really wasn't as good at intelligence as he thought he was. (I'd like to see more timelines where Purvis gets to be head of the FBI though )

Randy

Honestly I sort of feel like the US would have been better off with a separate dedicated internal intelligence agency and a separate domestic law enforcement/investigation agency. The FBI is forced to kind of do both but doesn't necessarily do either as well as a dedicated agency.

I just think pretty much anybody other then Hoover should have been in charge of said intel agency.

 

[Pelranius]

The cross dressing thing was just a intentionally fake nasty rumor. It was either created wholesale by Truman Capote because he thought it would be funny or he heavily spread it after hearing about it not because he believed them but just found it incredibly funny.

The evidence for Hoover being gay is more realistic. The complete lack of any sexual relationship with a woman along with his incredibly close and intimate relationship with Clyde Toliver make me personally believe them. I think Hoover was gay and that his relationship with Toliver was effectively romantic. But it's possible he was so deeply closeted that the relationship never became outright sexual.

I'm of the opinion that Hoover was gay, but he was a workaholic who wouldn't bother very much with romance or any sort of personal life, if at all, even if he lived in 2020.

 

[Father Maryland]

I'm of the opinion that Hoover was gay, but he was a workaholic who wouldn't bother very much with romance or any sort of personal life, if at all, even if he lived in 2020.

Seems pretty clear that he and Clyde Tolsen were in some sort of Romantic relationship. They didn't necessarily spend a lot of time cuddling but they definitely were in some relationship.

 

[Westbrook]

Regarding the existence of the files, Laurence Silberman, who was serving as the Deputy Attorney General in the Ford Administration, later a Judge on the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, said in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece:
"The House Judiciary Committee demanded I testify about those files, so I was obliged to read them. Accompanied by only one FBI official, I read virtually all these files in three weekends. It was the single worst experience of my long governmental service. Hoover had indeed tasked his agents with reporting privately to him any bits of dirt on figures such as Martin Luther King, or their families. Hoover sometimes used that information for subtle blackmail to ensure his and the bureau's power. I intend to take to my grave nasty bits of information on various political figures--some still active. As bad as the dirt collection business was, perhaps even worse was the evidence that he had allowed--even offered--the bureau to be used by presidents for nakedly political purposes. I have always thought that the most heinous act in which a democratic government can engage is to use its law enforcement machinery for political ends."

So the files did exist at some point, presumably some of the information was accurate, or if it wasn't, was rumor scurrilous enough to sink careers.

 

[RanulfC]

Honestly I sort of feel like the US would have been better off with a separate dedicated internal intelligence agency and a separate domestic law enforcement/investigation agency. The FBI is forced to kind of do both but doesn't necessarily do either as well as a dedicated agency.

I agree actually, as did apparently Truman and Congress post-WWII as that's what the CIA was SUPPOSED to be. Literally the "Central" Intelligence agency to which all US intelligence operations reported and which would collate and correlate all that information and propose counter-moves and contingency plans. Instead, with a solid core of ex-OSS 'operatives' used to and eager to continue doing 'hands-on-work' and more familiar with 'hands-on' operations we got a covert action group, (ANOTHER covert action group mind you) that immediately set out to compartmentalize it's operations and information which disinclined any other intelligence group to 'share' data or operations with them.

The CIA was supposed to FIX the problems with US intelligence found prior to and during WWII but instead... The CIA was supposed to operate both in foreign and domestic capacities but Hoover made it clear that domestic was his turf and he would not be cooperating or consulting with the CIA. Further since the founders of the CIA were in fact more interested in foreign operations and had the ear of both Truman and Eisenhower they had no real problem with this.

The thing is that you'd need a close working relationship and cooperation between a domestic intelligence and law enforcement agency so it made a lot of sense at the time to combine them since it was already clear the States were not going to be very supportive of such an organization. (The "United" States were still very much NOT that united even as late as the mid-30s ) The first Red Scare helped on the Federal level but didn't do much at the State level where it took the significant (and very public) issues with the 20s and 30s 'gangster' problem to finally get the States to relax the restrictions on Federal activities.
(I have to forgive some of the authors here who's time-lines tend to have Hoover and/or the FBI/Federal forces going from state to state and suppressing violence and lawlessness in the 20s and 30s since even American's have a hard time with history and especially that period. The use and allowances for Federal authority versus State authority were heavily in favor of the States and actual use of Federal forces needed a LOT of State government support and agreement. Hence for example why the FBI had to coordinate with local law enforcement because they couldn't arrest anyone, ask for a search warrant or even carry a gun!)

I just think pretty much anybody other then Hoover should have been in charge of said intel agency.

I agree, but... I'm no the fence a bit since at the same time I'n not sure anyone but Hoover could have managed the political and publicity factors to move the FBI forward in either capacity. He had the political savvy and could make the right connections and also had the media savvy enough to promote to the public is such a manner as he could undermine opposition from more local and State authorities.. But by the 1930s his 'influence' is becoming more of hindrance even thought the Bureau was finally coming into it's own. I don't know of any historic figure at the time who probably could have husbanded both (or either) a Federal law enforcement and intelligence agency through the birthing pains of the period.

Randy

 

[marktaha]

Surely it depended on the politician - the private lives of JFK, LBJ, and Nixon included a lot they wouldn't have wanted in the papers.

 

[Father Maryland]

I do wonder if Hoover did have any legitimate data/photos of Ealanor Roosevelt with a female lover. Would have been interesting to see how the US/FDR administration deals with the public revelation that the First Lady sleeps with other Ladies.

 

[Crowbar Six]

So Hoover spent 50 years bluffing about how important he was?




Hoover's whole shtick was that he wanted to hunt down "America's enemies" as he saw them?

Was he being blackmailed by the mafia?

Well there was scope given his own predilections. There was certainly at least one photo of him dressed as a woman and he had at least one long term gay relationship and likely had several more as a young man. He was definitely open to compromise.

 

[RanulfC]

I do wonder if Hoover did have any legitimate data/photos of Ealanor Roosevelt with a female lover. Would have been interesting to see how the US/FDR administration deals with the public revelation that the First Lady sleeps with other Ladies.

If he'd even SUGGESTED such a thing they never would have found the body, or the files, or likely the FBI HQ building Elanor and Alice got along famously IIRC and those were the TWO "Roosevelt's" you did NOT want to mess with

Randy

 

[Bookmark1995]

If he'd even SUGGESTED such a thing they never would have found the body, or the files, or likely the FBI HQ building Elanor and Alice got along famously IIRC and those were the TWO "Roosevelt's" you did NOT want to mess with

Randy

Eleanor destroyed Tammany Hall for denying her son greatness. That woman did not screw around.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Hoover was never 'insecure' especially about Purvis. As director it was clear that he would never be in the field or such but he was ALWAYS the one who got a major share of credit for anything the FBI did. (And would always deflect any blame or failure) Purvis was being set up to be Hoovers successor (at least that was the press at the time) but he was focused on crime and he and Hoover had a significant difference of opinion on how the FBI should be run and "who" their main focus should be. Hoover's ONLY insecurity we can find seems to have been getting 'fired' and loosing his control over the FBI.

Purvis was VERY good at opposing organized crime and planning and executing operations to take out top criminals and gangs. He was NOT a very good politician and he disliked the more administrative requirements that a Director was supposed to do. He also was far less interested in "Intelligence" work outside of those involved with criminal activity. Hoover on the other hand was ambivalent about crime but arguably great at most other aspects of what an FBI Director had to do to promote the organization and expand it's mission. (Keep in mind when the FBI was first started the agents had no arrest or detainment power and could not even carry a gun) He built Purvis up in the public eye as the 'face' of the FBI fighting crime in the 20s and early 30s. However Purvis was a rather direct guy who saw no good reason not to pursue any and all actual criminals whereas Hoover knew that certain organizations and gangs could be coerced or cooperated with to gather intelligence and monitor the activities of "subversives" and other enemies in the US.

Purvis was also not going to roll-over and be Hoover's "man" if Hoover managed to get a 'permanent' government position, (like his attempts at being nominated for the Supreme Court) so that Hoover could continue to run the FBI. Eventually the split was wide enough Hoover dropped Purvis and went looking for someone more amiable to his plans and more in-line with his vision for the FBI.

Randy

In others word, Purvis would've embodied the Peter Principle: a good man in the field, but a really shitty manager.

While Hoover had the people skills to actually manage a huge federal department.

 

[arrowiv]

Another point is that Hoover strongly opposed the formation of the CIA. He always felt that HE should be in charge of world intelligence besides domestic intelligence and as a result, there was a really heated rivalry and rocky relationship between the two agencies. It got to the point where in 1970, Hoover found his chance and ceased all cooperation with the CIA and intelligence community (This would be restored two years later only after Hoover kicked the bucket).