WI interwar Germany had a 'Washington' navy?

[Riain]

Political statements are well and good, but what sort of political statement does having the prestige equivelent of a capital ship having to flee from a few cruisers make? In the end it was a warship which failed it's first test against the lower end of it's range of opponents, thus I consider it a failure.

Perhaps if the PBs could operate with a German light cruiser in support they might have been able to use the heavy armament to win the River Platte. But German light cruisers weren't much chop either, so that idea is out.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Political statements are well and good, but what sort of political statement does having the prestige equivelent of a capital ship having to flee from a few cruisers make? In the end it was a warship which failed it's first test against the lower end of it's range of opponents, thus I consider it a failure.

Perhaps if the PBs could operate with a German light cruiser in support they might have been able to use the heavy armament to win the River Platte. But German light cruisers weren't much chop either, so that idea is out.

I think you are making a critical mistake in the Graf Spee action. It held its own and it did deal a lot of damage. The failure is not of the ship - and there will and have been actions where better ships have been defeated by their lesser equivalents - the failure is more of the captain. The British certainly won the psychological battle which drove Langsdorff to scuttle the ship.

 

[Thyme]

Perhaps Versailles & Washington, along with a few others could be decided at the same time. Another possibility is that is that a Germany that did just a bit better in WWI & Versailles could have a seat in Washington, even if it doesn't change what it can have (maybe with a few 'clarifications').

 

[MrP]

Carriers were seen purely as adjuncts to the battle line in the early 20s, they were armed with cruiser sized guns becuase it was thought they would need to actually fight cruisers. I wasn't until the 30s that this belief changed, and even then it died hard. If Germany was allowed to have a feeble battle line; eg. the 2 Bayerns and 3 Derfflingers the granting of 45,000 tons of carrier wouldn't be seen as too significant.

5 capital ships a feeble battleline? Well, I suppose . . .

It really depends on the constituent parts of the RN, frankly. The RN wants *initially* to consider herself capable of standing up to the USN and IJN. Add in the German Navy, too, and the RN needs toi be bigger, which means the USN needs to be bigger - I could claim this means the IJN needs to be bigger, but unless they have ATL cash, this is demonstrably false.

Make the German Navy small enough to be contained by the RN, old man. Scale down these ATL German ambitions to something the RN could hold in place. What you've suggested so far is up to 2 carriers, and 5 line of battle ships. This is bigger than what the RN was worried about IOTL in WWII.

If you desperately want Germany to have some operable vessels for WWII, then give her (post-WWI) up to 2 very small carriers converted from merchant hulls, either 2 or 3 capships (as David says, these must be smaller vessels such as the Kaiser initially), and then alter the TL so that they can be upgraded and increased in number.

 

[Riain]

I'm not wedded to any number, 5 ships is what France and Italy had and I'd think it is a bit much for a defeated Germany. How about if it was only the Baden and Bayern and provision for 2/5 of what Italy and France were allocated? I think that would be enough for Germany to have some continuity.

They could rebuild these 2 battleships, build a couple of experimental carriers and a handful of heavy and light cruisers between the wars. Would this base and experience be enough to make the German navy far more effective during WW2?

 

[David S Poepoe]

I'm not wedded to any number, 5 ships is what France and Italy had and I'd think it is a bit much for a defeated Germany. How about if it was only the Baden and Bayern and provision for 2/5 of what Italy and France were allocated? I think that would be enough for Germany to have some continuity.

They could rebuild these 2 battleships, build a couple of experimental carriers and a handful of heavy and light cruisers between the wars. Would this base and experience be enough to make the German navy far more effective during WW2?

At best the Konig class dreadnoughts with there 10x12in guns and I would be generous with three.