WI: Hindenburg dies in February 1933?

[Rufus]

What if the German Reichspräsident, Paul von Hindenburg, suffers a stroke in the wake of the Reichstag fire on 27 February, and dies shortly after? This means Hindenburg is not able to pass the emergency decree the next day, or the infamous Enabling Act of 23 March.

In the case of the death of the Reichspräsident, his temporary successor would be the president of the Reichsgericht (the German Supreme Court), which was Erwin Bumke, until the election of the next Reichspräsident.

What happens next? Who would be possible candidates for Reichspräsident, and what effect will all of this have on the national elections on 5 March?

 

[m0585]

It'll become a race between Hitler and Bumke to secure the loyalty of the Reichswehr.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Given what appears to be his complete lack of challenge to the events of OTL - and that he became an honoury Nazi after their seizure of power - I would say not much. By the look of his ‘record’ from the Ermächtigungsgesetz onwards, there’s every chance he would rubber stamp a Nazi power grab when they try it in the aftermath of Hindenburg’s death.

 

[Rufus]

Given what appears to be his complete lack of challenge to the events of OTL - and that he became an honoury Nazi after their seizure of power - I would say not much. By the look of his ‘record’ from the Ermächtigungsgesetz onwards, there’s every chance he would rubber stamp a Nazi power grab when they try it in the aftermath of Hindenburg’s death.

I could see him agree to pass the emergency degree of 28 February, but not the Enabling Act. I think he would be too much of a coward for that, and would prefer to leave that decision to his elected successor. The question is, would Hitler decide to run as Reichspräsident again in 1933? Or does the right try to find another candidate? Franz von Papen’s plan was to use Hitler as a kind of figurehead, he didn’t originally plan to give him absolute power, so i doubt he would support Hitler’s campaign for Reichspräsident. But who else was there? Ludendorff? That would be funny, lol. I assume the democratic parties agree on a common candidate of their own, though i’m not sure who.

 

[Pelranius]

Ludendorff's personal hatred of Hitler by that time means he probably won't get nationalist support, and thus I don't think anyone will be his corner.

 

[Seandineen]

Hugenberg here we come,

 

[Rufus]

Hugenberg here we come,

You mean as Reichspräsident? Would Hitler go for that, or would he prefer to run himself? I could see some of the democratic parties (like the Zentrum, and some of the liberals) agree to back Hugenberg, if only to prevent Hitler from getting the position. In that case Hitler might back him too, to prevent the other parties from uniting behind a candidate of their own. If Hugenberg has the backing of conservatives and the radical right, i could see him getting getting elected.

That would certainly be an interesting scenario, since Hugenberg would technically be Hitler’s superior, and i don’t think he would agree to just give up all the authority of his new position to Hitler. Germany might then look like a more traditional right-wing dictatorship, instead of the totalitarian Nazi state it became IOTL, with lots of internal power struggles.

 

[Pelranius]

You mean as Reichspräsident? Would Hitler go for that, or would he prefer to run himself? I could see some of the democratic parties (like the Zentrum, and some of the liberals) agree to back Hugenberg, if only to prevent Hitler from getting the position. In that case Hitler might back him too, to prevent the other parties from uniting behind a candidate of their own. If Hugenberg has the backing of conservatives and the radical right, i could see him getting getting elected.

That would certainly be an interesting scenario, since Hugenberg would technically be Hitler’s superior, and i don’t think he would agree to just give up all the authority of his new position to Hitler. Germany might then look like a more traditional right-wing dictatorship, instead of the totalitarian Nazi state it became IOTL, with lots of internal power struggles.

Hugenberg would probably try to put down the Nazis sooner or later. Sort of like Antonescu falling out with the Romanian further right.

 

[Seandineen]

You mean as Reichspräsident? Would Hitler go for that, or would he prefer to run himself? I could see some of the democratic parties (like the Zentrum, and some of the liberals) agree to back Hugenberg, if only to prevent Hitler from getting the position. In that case Hitler might back him too, to prevent the other parties from uniting behind a candidate of their own. If Hugenberg has the backing of conservatives and the radical right, i could see him getting getting elected.

That would certainly be an interesting scenario, since Hugenberg would technically be Hitler’s superior, and i don’t think he would agree to just give up all the authority of his new position to Hitler. Germany might then look like a more traditional right-wing dictatorship, instead of the totalitarian Nazi state it became IOTL, with lots of internal power struggles.

I think you are right. Hugenberg would not allow the crooked cross to replace the the old imperial flag. We might see an authoritarian non fascist germany.

 

[Seandineen]

Hugenberg would probably try to put down the Nazis sooner or later. Sort of like Antonescu falling out with the Romanian further right.

I know the dvnp bismark youth, were as armed as the red front or the hitler youth.

 

[catalfalque]

Neither Hitler nor the Nazis are going to give up, risk giving up, or agree to a diminution of power. They have ARRIVED - that is the logic of history. If there is a new struggle, then so be it, but they won't back anything that does not cement their rule.

I could see them playing a blinder and bringing the Kaiser back, instead of a new election. This plays to all of Goering's contacts, to the aristocracy, the industrial magnates, the business community, they would all back the idea of a Restoration instead of new presidential elections. The Acting President would be under massive pressure to do this, and for the Nazis they have Mussolini's example to emulate.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Neither Hitler nor the Nazis are going to give up, risk giving up, or agree to a diminution of power. They have ARRIVED - that is the logic of history. If there is a new struggle, then so be it, but they won't back anything that does not cement their rule.

I could see them playing a blinder and bringing the Kaiser back, instead of a new election. This plays to all of Goering's contacts, to the aristocracy, the industrial magnates, the business community, they would all back the idea of a Restoration instead of new presidential elections. The Acting President would be under massive pressure to do this, and for the Nazis they have Mussolini's example to emulate.

Was hitler ever in favour of a restoration? I mean really in favour as opposed to a couple of well timed statements to the right people that were quickly forgotten? I can’t see it myself. Also, how would the WAllies react to a Hohenzollern coming back? They did have a clause in the Treaty of Versailles looking to prosecute the Kaiser as a war criminal, after all.

 

[oberdada]

Bummer might sign the law anyhow.
Then there will be new presidential elections.
There was still enough left of the republic and the Nazis were not yet established enough to merge head of state with the office of chancellor.


Hitler might win, but it is not yet certain. If the Weimar Coalition agrees on a candidate like Hugo Eckart He does have a chance.
Especially if the KPD gets crushed as in OTL and can't campaign.

It would be a big ironic moment of history, especially since till late 1932 the chancellor would have gotten the presidential powers immediately, it was only changed to hurt Schleicher.



Hitler will never bringt Back the Kaiser.

That was only propaganda.

 

[Rufus]

Neither Hitler nor the Nazis are going to give up, risk giving up, or agree to a diminution of power. They have ARRIVED - that is the logic of history. If there is a new struggle, then so be it, but they won't back anything that does not cement their rule.

I could see them playing a blinder and bringing the Kaiser back, instead of a new election. This plays to all of Goering's contacts, to the aristocracy, the industrial magnates, the business community, they would all back the idea of a Restoration instead of new presidential elections. The Acting President would be under massive pressure to do this, and for the Nazis they have Mussolini's example to emulate.

I agree that the Nazis wouldn’t give up, though the loss of Hindenburg makes Hitler’s position more precarious than it might look at first glance. One of the reasons most of the old conservative establishment supported Hitler, at least in the early days, was Hindenburg’s presence, who was technically Hitler’s superior until his death, and served as the bridge between the Nazis and the Prussian traditionalists. Without him i don’t see the conservatives supporting Hitler to run as Reichspräsident.

A restauration of the monarchy is certainly possible, possibly confirmed through referendum, but i doubt they would offer the crown to
Wilhelm II. They will probably choose his son instead.

In that case, if Hitler remains chancellor, either under someone like Hugenberg as Reichspräsident, or under a Kaiser, then he and his party will have to behave more ‘respectably’, which probably means he won’t be able to don his brown uniform while in office, but remains in suit and tie, like in his early days as chancellor.

Respectable!Hitler looks so weird, lol.

 

[Max Sinister]

I know the dvnp bismark youth, were as armed as the red front or the hitler youth.

But they had much fewer men. If the Reichswehr doesn't stop Hitler, nobody can. 100,000 (although professional) men vs. several hundred thousand SA men? Not to mention the Rotfrontkämpferbund and maybe Reichsbanner would want to join the "fun".