WI: Hansl im Keller, or a Son for Karl VI?

I assume that the Stato dei Presidi would be transferred to Tuscany from Naples as part of the settlement since it would enhance the Tuscan state and secure communications with Corsica. Perhaps with that transfer to the Tuscan half of the state the loss of the Lunigiana to Genoa would not rise much ire in Florence.

Certainly Elba would gain much more importance. Tuscany only controlled the port of Portoferraio, which was of such little consequence that apparently Grand Duke Leopold actually considered selling it to the British in 1784 (the Bourbons gave him a hard "no" on that one). The rest of the island was Spanish/Neapolitan, either directly in the case of the port of Porto Longone or indirectly through the Princes of Piombino who held the rest of the island (plus holdings on the mainland). Acquiring Porto Longone and the suzerainty of Piombino would be a top priority for any Tuscan-Corsican state and might be part of an overall deal, although given the considerable holdings the Princes of Piombino had in Naples that might get rather complicated. The "mainland" Stato dei Presidi, in contrast, has much less strategic and economic value to the Tuscan-Corsican state, even if its cession would make the borders look neater.

To sweeten the deal for Genoa one could also cede the Modenese Lunigiana to them, as the whole area was an crazy patchwork of little fiefs. The Modenese were rewarded with the Lordship of Novellara after the War of the Polish Succession. If they wanted to, the Austrians could also offer him the succession to Guastalla, whose insane, childless duke died without issue in 1749. The Duke of Modena was very interested in that state and tried (unsuccessfully) to claim it in the War of the Austrian Succession; he might see it as a fair trade for his scattered fiefs in the Lunigiana.
 
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Perhaps Massa and Carrara are exchanged for Guastalla or would that be too much? Certainly quite the game of musical chairs though I do tend to discount the notion of exchanges solely for 'rational' borders as I don't think that really would have been a priority for an early 18th century mindset.
 
Massa-Carrara isn't really up for grabs - unlike Tuscany and Guastalla (and Modena, for that matter), Massa-Carrara allowed female inheritance. Unless the emperor wants to steal it from the rightful heiress, it will lawfully pass to Maria Theresa Cybo-Malaspina and then to her heirs. IOTL she married the future Duke of Modena, which was helpful as Massa-Carrara gave Modena a coastline for the first time.

It's true that a deal for the Tuscan+Modenese Lunigiana would make more "rational" borders, and I agree that this in itself was not really a priority for rulers at this time. My suggestion, however, was not so much based on "rationality" as trying to identify nearby territory which the Genoese could reasonably be ceded, and there simply aren't that many options. Undoubtedly they'd like some Piedmontese territory, particularly the enclave of Oneglia, but the Savoyards are going to be very hostile to that idea unless there's a much bigger payoff in it for them. Aside from that, the Lunigiana is the most obvious place to compensate them, which was why IOTL it was discussed several times in the context of a possible trade for Corsica. Adding the Modenese portion makes that offer slightly sweeter.

That said, how "sweet" the offer is may be irrelevant, because the issue wasn't really about land or revenue. It was about prestige - the prestige of Corsica's royal crown, the prestige of still holding on to the last remaining piece of the overseas colonial empire, and the prestige they stood to lose by capitulating to the rebels. This quest to save face and maintain their prestige led the rulers of Genoa to drag the state through four decades of fruitless counterinsurgency and nearly bankrupted the Republic. I suspect that tinkering with the deal to make it a little more attractive to Genoa will not change the fact that the great powers will have to strong-arm the republic into accepting it.
 
Massa-Carrara isn't really up for grabs - unlike Tuscany and Guastalla (and Modena, for that matter), Massa-Carrara allowed female inheritance. Unless the emperor wants to steal it from the rightful heiress, it will lawfully pass to Maria Theresa Cybo-Malaspina and then to her heirs. IOTL she married the future Duke of Modena, which was helpful as Massa-Carrara gave Modena a coastline for the first time.

It's true that a deal for the Tuscan+Modenese Lunigiana would make more "rational" borders, and I agree that this in itself was not really a priority for rulers at this time. My suggestion, however, was not so much based on "rationality" as trying to identify nearby territory which the Genoese could reasonably be ceded, and there simply aren't that many options. Undoubtedly they'd like some Piedmontese territory, particularly the enclave of Oneglia, but the Savoyards are going to be very hostile to that idea unless there's a much bigger payoff in it for them. Aside from that, the Lunigiana is the most obvious place to compensate them, which was why IOTL it was discussed several times in the context of a possible trade for Corsica. Adding the Modenese portion makes that offer slightly sweeter.

That said, how "sweet" the offer is may be irrelevant, because the issue wasn't really about land or revenue. It was about prestige - the prestige of Corsica's royal crown, the prestige of still holding on to the last remaining piece of the overseas colonial empire, and the prestige they stood to lose by capitulating to the rebels. This quest to save face and maintain their prestige led the rulers of Genoa to drag the state through four decades of fruitless counterinsurgency and nearly bankrupted the Republic. I suspect that tinkering with the deal to make it a little more attractive to Genoa will not change the fact that the great powers will have to strong-arm the republic into accepting it.
As to "stealing" lands from their rightful heirs, wasn't that what Karl VI did with Parma and Joseph I/Karl VI with Mantua anyway?
 
As to "stealing" lands from their rightful heirs, wasn't that what Karl VI did with Parma and Joseph I/Karl VI with Mantua anyway?
Parma was acquired by the Habsburgs by treaty as part of the general peace settlement of a war, while the Duke of Mantua was declared a felon and deposed by the Imperial Diet for siding with the enemies of the Empire. Those situations are not quite the same as unilaterally seizing a neutral sovereign state from its legal ruler with no justification whatsoever.
 
As to "stealing" lands from their rightful heirs, wasn't that what Karl VI did with Parma and Joseph I/Karl VI with Mantua anyway?
Not really. Charles III exchanged Parma and his future inheritance of Tuscany with the recognition of his rule over the more important and prestigious lands who he conquered while the situation for Mantua and Monferrat was different was possible for both either going to the closest relative of being declared vacants
 
Ok, I'm a little late to the party but since I've been trying to develop a TL with a POD around the time of Joseph I/Charles VI I'll give it a try. I haven't given much thought to this particular possibility of a Habsburg son in 1724, but it is interesting.

First off, there could be major butterflies between the POD and 1740 so Charles VI need not die at the same time he did OTL. There is the story about him being posioned but I for one, seriously doubt it. One reason is that the age of assassinating rival monarchs with poison in Europe was long gone. The other is that I'm pretty sure his cooks wouldn't be so careless to prepare a meal with poisonous mushrooms by accident.
Actually I have read that just before his death Charles went for a long and exhausting hunt near the border with Hungary and came back with a cold which turned out to be a serious illness. That (and maybe, a large mushroom meal that compounded his ingestion problems) was most likely the death of him. Besides, he was getting kinda old and unhealthy with an old wife that had no more chance of conceiving a child. Why would anyone risk becoming a persona non grata for murdering the Holy roman emperor if you can let nature do its thing in a few years?
Of course, the writer can still leave his death as OTL just for simplicity's sake. But anyway I'm rambling. Here are a few things that are important immediately after the POD.:

1) Little Hansl - having a son would completely change the dynamic of the entire court, which was the center of the Monarchy at the time. It will influence Charles himself (for the better I hope) and his wife, strenghtening her position at court and probably having a good influence on her health. IOTL she showed some capability in Catalonia so her having a bigger role can only mean a good thing.
An interesting thing to write about is the upbringing of little Hansl. No doubt his father would pay a lot of attention to his education (unlike MT) and would want to impart his love for everything Spanish.
As for tutors, Eugene would be great but I think he is too old and too busy to do any real tutoring, thoughbhe can serve as a great role model and maybe throw an advice or two before he kicks the bucket (if it's as OTL, Hansl will be a kid when Eugene dies). But there are a number of capable tutors to find for the next Emperor. A good thing to do is to avoid any Jesuit teachers.
Then there's the choice of a wife but we will get to it later.

2) Austro-Spanish Alliance - this has always baffled me... how could either Vienna or Madrid agree to this? But Ripperda is still too cool to fail in his alliance scheme. Although seriously, how did they think it would work? Spain wanted Gibraltar back but how can Austria help? It had no navy, any troops from Italy had to cross the Med which could have easily been blocked by the Royal Navy and the land route meant marching for thousands of miles across the Alps and the Pyrenees (and through France). Besides it was known Austrian finances were poor.
And what was Spain to do for Austria?
Anyway, I suppose the alliance is still formed, the Spanish bang their heads against the Rock and the Austrians do nothing. The only difference is in the engagement. Hansl gets engaged to a Spanish princess but it is by no means secure. After a year or two the Spanish realize they are all alone against both France and GB so a congress is called to resolve the issue with GB keeping Gibraltar

3) Pragmatic Sanction - with a male heir this paper is not as neccessary as IOTL. Bohemia and Hungary have already confirmed it, meaning succession in all parts of the Monarchy is secure, at least internally. With Joseph's daughters married to Bavaria and Saxony they are both on board, at least officially.
However, Hansl is an only son, meaning that in case he gets sick and dies (which was a certain possibility) Charles is back to square one. He might not try to get all of Europe to sign the Sanction, but he will still probably try to get some guarantees from at least one or two important allies in case he's left only with daughters. This means Ripperda might agree to recognize it (he was crazy like that).
One thing that is possible here is to use different arguments to convince Charles that getting signatures is useless without a strong army and good finances. Eugene and other advisors could try to tell him that his son, as the future emperor, would be beset by many challenges and having a strong army would mean keeping the Empire alive. Not really sure if I explained this right, it's off the top of my head and needs more elaboration.

4) Hansl's election - both Bohemia and Hungary are by now hereditary so I'm guessing the smart thing to do is crown Hansl already as kid and then proceed to get him elected as King of the Germans on same manner Leopold did with Joseph. This would happen sometime around 1735-36. It should not be an issue. Bohemia is a vote, Brandenburg and Hanover should be on board. If Charles supports Saxon succession in Poland it is one more vote. The ecclesiastical electors are most likely on board too and I can only see Bavaria disagreeing but that is not important, especially if there's male Habsburg.

5) Marriage - as already mentioned earlier in the thread, a Spanish princess could be nice, especially if it prevents another war, but here Elisabeth Farnese comes into the fray. As much as it is nice having your daughter become an Empress, I am still pretty sure she would try to make gains for Carlos and Philip in Italy which can cause problems with Charles. It all depends how the ATL Congress of Soissons plays out.
I'll explain this. After a failed alliance in 1725 they might part ways. There are two problems. Charles will become isolated diplomatically. Spain will resent him because of conflicting interests in Italy while GB will resent him for the Ostend Company. Getting British support means closing down the company and losing a lot of potential revenue for an ally that showed no particular interest in helping Habsburgs in the Med, but can be really helpful in case of a new war with France (Charles still does not know the Maritime Powers will ditch him as in the War of Polish succession). OTOH, Spain could also be useful. Agreeing to Bourbon succession of Parma and Tuscany, Charles can get Spanish neutrality, thereby securing all of his Italian lands and having one less front in case of a war with France. If he goes for an alliance with the Maritime Powers as OTL the closing of the Company is definitely a condition thought he could request opening the Scheld or changes to the Barrier Treaty in exchange. The Dutch will, of course, be adamant about the Scheldt but renegotiating the Barrier Treaty and some financial compensantions in either direction are possible.
As for France itself, I am unsure. Maybe Madrid can act as a proxy to secure a treaty with the French too but Fleury is an odd one. Although the French need not fear Habsburg encirclement anymore, a conflict with Britain is bound to happen while at the same time the French are still angling for some expansion in the Netherlands. Those ambitions are on hold as long as Fleury is alive, but there is also the Polish succession problem.
 
@Vladivostock While I agree with your general thrust, I wonder if Karl VI will still roll on with the Pragmatic Sanction? Its one thing while Hansl is still an infant, but if he's relatively healthy and seems to be thriving, I suspect Karl will instead, direct his abilities to getting his son being elected king of the Romans instead. After all, so long as Karl VI has a male heir, the Josephine line has no claim. For the sake of the POD let's assume Hansl is as healthy as his oldest sister.

A Pragmatic Sanction will take second place to the imperial election IMO. And besides, why would Karl need to curry favour with the British or Dutch to have his son's election? George II is bound by his grandfather being made elector to vote Habsburg (true, he doesn't have to), but I suspect Karl VI would spend a lot more time focusing on the INTERNAL affairs of the empire - with regards ti having to curry favours - than waste favours (like dissolving the Ostend Company - OTL he needed Britain to agree to the Sanction, here he doesn't. Britain can't FORCE him to close the company any more than they could force the Swedes or Danes or French to close their India companies. The Dutch are unhappy with it, but I doubt anyone's going to go to war over it @Parma @pompejus ) on EXTERNAL affairs.
 
@Vladivostock While I agree with your general thrust, I wonder if Karl VI will still roll on with the Pragmatic Sanction? Its one thing while Hansl is still an infant, but if he's relatively healthy and seems to be thriving, I suspect Karl will instead, direct his abilities to getting his son being elected king of the Romans instead. After all, so long as Karl VI has a male heir, the Josephine line has no claim. For the sake of the POD let's assume Hansl is as healthy as his oldest sister.

A Pragmatic Sanction will take second place to the imperial election IMO. And besides, why would Karl need to curry favour with the British or Dutch to have his son's election? George II is bound by his grandfather being made elector to vote Habsburg (true, he doesn't have to), but I suspect Karl VI would spend a lot more time focusing on the INTERNAL affairs of the empire - with regards ti having to curry favours - than waste favours (like dissolving the Ostend Company - OTL he needed Britain to agree to the Sanction, here he doesn't. Britain can't FORCE him to close the company any more than they could force the Swedes or Danes or French to close their India companies. The Dutch are unhappy with it, but I doubt anyone's going to go to war over it @Parma @pompejus ) on EXTERNAL affairs.
Exactly. While Hansl is young, he is an healthy boy AND that change everything for his father: he need to concentrate on internal affairs of his lands and of the Empire, instead of curry the favor of anyone.

Keep in mind another thing: weddings can also be arranged for sealing a peace. In OTL matches between Austria and Spain were in the cards between 1625 and 1629. For what reason we can not have a similar development ATL with the matches recovered after the War of the Polish Succession? Maria Theresa would be 18 years old, Charles of Spain 19 while Charles would be 11 and the two infantas of Spain 9 and 6.
If that war go as OTL, at least in Italy, the reasons for such matches would be pretty evident: Charles of Spain would get Naples and Sicily (who he has already conquered) as dowry of Maria Theresa, while Maria Teresa Rafaela’s big dowry would cover part of the war compensations for Austria (who would include also the passage of Parma and Piacenza to Austria)
 
The Dutch are unhappy with it, but I doubt anyone's going to go to war over it @Parma @pompejus ) on EXTERNAL affairs.
I don't think the Dutch will go to war over it, but it can have other consequences. For example the Dutch might decide that to secure their trade holdings in the east they now need more control over the Flemish ports. So when war arrives they might actualy take an effort to gain Flemish ports, like Ostend or Antwerp in the peace. At first they didn't care that much for them, since they were full of catholics. Better to have them in the hands of an other power who has to defend them and take some noce colonies in the peace. Now they might want to go for those ports, who are a threat to Dutch commerce, in the peace.

Mind you, this can only happen when the right situation arises, the right kind of war, with the right kind of peace, so not a certainty. But it will give the Dutch an incentive to see them as a potential target. That said, I don't think the Ostend company will be that much of a threat to the Dutchor anywhere. In the end the Austrians ae not a naval power. and will not accomplish large things in the east (or west), especialy not since they only have one minor port (Antwerp is still closed and will remain closed, the Dutch will go to war over that).
 
@Vladivostock While I agree with your general thrust, I wonder if Karl VI will still roll on with the Pragmatic Sanction? Its one thing while Hansl is still an infant, but if he's relatively healthy and seems to be thriving, I suspect Karl will instead, direct his abilities to getting his son being elected king of the Romans instead. After all, so long as Karl VI has a male heir, the Josephine line has no claim. For the sake of the POD let's assume Hansl is as healthy as his oldest sister.

A Pragmatic Sanction will take second place to the imperial election IMO. And besides, why would Karl need to curry favour with the British or Dutch to have his son's election? George II is bound by his grandfather being made elector to vote Habsburg (true, he doesn't have to), but I suspect Karl VI would spend a lot more time focusing on the INTERNAL affairs of the empire - with regards ti having to curry favours - than waste favours (like dissolving the Ostend Company - OTL he needed Britain to agree to the Sanction, here he doesn't. Britain can't FORCE him to close the company any more than they could force the Swedes or Danes or French to close their India companies. The Dutch are unhappy with it, but I doubt anyone's going to go to war over it @Parma @pompejus ) on EXTERNAL affairs.
I am sorry my message wasn't really clear. I didn't think he needs to get British support for his son's election. He has got more than enough electoral support to pull that through. What I was saying is that, after the Spanish fail in taking Gibraltar, they will break off Ripperda's treaty and there will be a deal between Britain, France, Spain and the Dutch likw OTL where Spain gave up Gibraltar and Minorca and returned all the seized ships to the British. In return, the Triple Alliance of France, GB and the Dutch guarantees Carlos' succession in Parma and Tuscany, even accepting Spanish garrisons. Now this leaves Austria diplimatically isolated with their interests in Italy seriously threatened. It is at this moment they nees British support, not for the election but more as an ally in case of another Bourbon-Habsburg conflict which seems quite likely.
Although you are right, they cannot force Charles to close the company. Only in OTL they managed to demand it but now with a male heir it's off the table. Two other reasons are that the company is not really that much of a threat to British commerce and the Austrophile current in London seems pretty strong in 1731. So we can agree the Ostend Company survives and an Anglo-Austrian deal is signed eventually.
Though with a heavy heart, Charles will have to accept Bourbon succession in Parma and Tuscany.

Now, if you keep the War of the Polish Succession as OTL, Austria will suffer losses like Naples and Sicily. An engagement between Hansl and the infanta is a way to seal the peace treaty. That neutralizes the Spanish threat and allows Austria keeping Milan, Mantua, Parma and Piacenza. There is still the problem of Tuscany though. The Lorraine - Tuscany swap here is imposible since Francis would never accept it.

And yes, if we assume Hansl is as healthy as MT by 1735 the Pragmatic Sanction will be abandoned. Charles should devote more attention to resolving the myriad of problems inside the Monarchy but I don't think he would or could have done so. Firstly, Eugene is dead in 1736 and he failed to make sure someone decent would replace him. Also, apart from Charles' standard disinterest, there is the problem of two wars in 1730s that left him seriously indebted and in no position to begin any reforms. Once the Turkish war is over in 1739 (if it is as OTL) there is only a year before his death. So I believe little Hansl will start off similar as OTL MT regarding finances and army capabilities. His political situation will be better at least.

Oh and what about the two Archduchesses? Will they also be marries off to Bourbon infantes?
 
Two other reasons are that the company is not really that much of a threat to British commerce and the Austrophile current in London seems pretty strong in 1731. So we can agree the Ostend Company survives and an Anglo-Austrian deal is signed eventually.
The British India Company was opposed to the Ostend Company was because it cut into their monopoly on the tea trade with lower priced tea. That was smuggled into England through Scotland/Ireland (through Jacobite networks - sounds farfetched, to be sure, but the main backers of the Ostend Company, after the Flemish merchants were financiers from England and Scotland who wanted an "offshore bank account" to store their profits). But the hilarity of the situation was that while the EIC's board of directors in Whitehall were clamouring for the abolition of the Ostend Company, their own agents in India, Bengal and Canton were HELPING the Austro-Flemish by means of using the Ostend Company as a way of getting ill-gotten gains back to Europe without their bosses knowing.
Same for the Dutch. There were several Zealander businessmen who backed the Ostend Company because the VOC wouldn't let them in. Alexander Hume, the Ostend's "man in Bengal" was a Scot who had defected to the Ostend Company because the EIC refused to promote him. Anyhow, the Dutch, via one Jacomo Cloots (and other middlemen) would invest money in the Ostend Company by way of Lisbon, from where it would be transferred to another middleman to invest it in Antwerp.

So, as quickly as the English and Dutch were trying to shut it down, their own people were keeping it in business.

Now, if you keep the War of the Polish Succession as OTL, Austria will suffer losses like Naples and Sicily. An engagement between Hansl and the infanta is a way to seal the peace treaty. That neutralizes the Spanish threat and allows Austria keeping Milan, Mantua, Parma and Piacenza. There is still the problem of Tuscany though. The Lorraine - Tuscany swap here is imposible since Francis would never accept it.
See the abovementioned suggestion of a swap for Bavaria and a royal crown (Corsica).
And yes, if we assume Hansl is as healthy as MT by 1735 the Pragmatic Sanction will be abandoned. Charles should devote more attention to resolving the myriad of problems inside the Monarchy but I don't think he would or could have done so. Firstly, Eugene is dead in 1736 and he failed to make sure someone decent would replace him. Also, apart from Charles' standard disinterest, there is the problem of two wars in 1730s that left him seriously indebted and in no position to begin any reforms. Once the Turkish war is over in 1739 (if it is as OTL) there is only a year before his death. So I believe little Hansl will start off similar as OTL MT regarding finances and army capabilities. His political situation will be better at least.
Fair point. One DOES wonder if a less depressed Elisabeth Christine won't step into the gap once Eugen dies?

Oh and what about the two Archduchesses? Will they also be marries off to Bourbon infantes?
Maria Theresia to Carlos III (with Naples as a dowry) seems likely. Maria Anna, as usual, falls between the cracks. Her dad wanted her to marry someone important/influential. But I'll admit to being at a loss for who that could be. Only second/younger sons available by 1735 (José of Portugal is only likely if Mariana Vittoria marries Louis XV, Felipe of Spain (OTL duke of Parma) isn't really important either OTL or TTL. François Étienne of Lorraine is possible, but not sure how "useful" such a match would be. Saxony, Bavaria and the Palatinate are all too young.
 
Came across this "interesting" plan during by Stanhope and co. during the 1720s:
III. THE PARTITION OF THE SOUTHERN NETHERLANDS: THE LOW COUNTRIES INTO OUR OWN HANDS

A. THE BRINGING IN AND OUT OF A THIRD PARTY

Townshend starts his reasoning with a reference to James Stanhope (1673-1721), the deceased architect of the European peace system of the Quadruple Alliance. The Netherlands, in the disappeared statesman’s views, should be apportioned to the Duke of Lorrain (sovereign over territories encircled and repeatedly occupied by France). In case this would exceed the Duke’s financial and administrative capability, Stanhope saw a possible union with Cologne or Treves. The latter two ecclesiastical German electorates ought to be ‘secularised’ and the present rulers (princes of the church, implying their title ends with their lives and cannot pass on to their children, as was the case with secular princes) duly compensated. Consequently, the Duke would rule a buffer state stretching from the Lys to the Rhine, become a sensu lato territorial neighbour to the electorate of Hannover and be able to meddle seriously in both European and German political affairs. However, many practical and legal inconveniencies rendered this ‘solution’ rather fictitious: to begin with, the Imperial Diet would have to pronounce itself on the
recomposition or the secularization of territories sending delegates (and even two electors in the college choosing the Emperor) to Regensburg42. ‘It was the vainest of imaginations to think it could ever be brought to bear’.
Nevertheless, this was not the main reason for Townshend to reject Stanhope’s chimerical idea. ‘[…] neither can I see any reason why England & Holland should be looking out for a third prince to give these Dominions to, after the Experience they have had for many years, that when they are in weak hands, the excessive Burthen of defending them lies wholly upon those two powers, & when they are in hands in some degree strong enough to defend them, they are made use of against them43’.

B. THE BRITISH CLAIM ON FLANDERS

The originality of Townshend’s plan boils down to the following idea: ‘so much of these [the Low Countries] countrys as is absolutely necessary for their security, ought to be put into their own hands respectively, and so much […] should be allotted to each of those powers […, f. 108v.] that what remains may safely be put into the hands of France44’. In other words: the hypothesis to be avoided at all costs, is and remains the occupation of the Low Countries by France. However, this only comes into being when French domination reaches a critical point. If Britain and Holland, together, or with the help of a third power45, manage to separately control and isolate the choke points, a minimal French presence would not be an obstacle to the stability of the situation.
Townshend has his list ready: ‘Ipres, Newport, Ostend, Plassendahl46 & Bruges, with a territory annexed to them sufficient to maintain the garrisons in these places […] & to keep the fortifications in repair’. Ghent, however, is excluded from it:
As to Ghent, its situation with respect to Trade, standing upon the Schelde, & having a Canal which leads to Bruges & thence to Ostend, it should in my opinion be declared a free town under the protection of England & the States & no other Dutys ought to be suffer’d [109r] to be imposed or laid on goods there, than such only as should be sufficient to support the government and magistracy of the town47.
This looks like a new Anglo-Dutch Condominium (1706-1715), after the system that controlled Brabant and substantial parts of Flanders after the battle of Ramillies48. Townshend allots further territories to the Dutch: ‘Antwerp & Dendermonde & so much of the Country as they should be given49’. Finally, ’the rest’ (the Duchy of Brabant, the County of Namur, the County of Chiny, the Duchy of Luxemburg, the city of Tournai) falls upon ‘France & such other princes as may be agreed upon’. In other words, Britain and Holland claim the coastal zone and indirectly control administration in Ghent50.
However, Townshend is oblivious of one crucial cultural factor: religion. In Horace Walpole’s words, ‘the Gentry and common people I fear are so bigoted, and so absolutely under the influence of the priests, that they will never sit quiet under the government of protestant powers, tho’never so mild and easy, and tho’ their religion and priviledges be entirely preserved to them51’. Both in the long (the failed union of the XVII Provinces) and the middle run (Anglo-Dutch occupation during the War of the Spanish Succession52), cultural issues have had a devastating effect on bringing two nations as diverse as the Southern Netherlands and the Dutch Republic together, making a ‘civil government’ nearly impracticable.

C. THE BALANCE OF POWER REVERSED ?

As a well versed ‘honnête homme’, Townshend includes a preliminary refutatio of his formulated scheme. First, ‘taking the Low Countries from the Emp[ero]r would be weakening him too much & consequently overturning the Balance of Power in Europe’53. An argument not at all convincing, since ‘the Emperor does not draw one shilling of money from those countrys, neither can he call away one Regiment from thence to the assistance of any other part of his Dominions54’. Even more, weakening Charles VI would be to the advantage of the other powers:
He will then indeed have it no longer in his power to engage us in a warr, whenever he thinks fitt, upon terms never so unreasonable (as whilst those [f. 110r.] countrys are in his hands he really may) nor treat us ill, & force us into all the unreasonable measures he thinks fitt to prescribe.
Consequently, the arbitrium of the Emperor to engage a European war is considerably reduced. The Maritime Powers ‘shall not be less in a condition […] to help him, whenever the Balance of Power requires it […] the Emp[ero]r, by losing these countrys, will have lost the unreasonable hold he has over Us, & must make it his principal aim to cultivate the friendship of the King & the States, because having lost the means of obliging us to do whatever he pleased […] he will be forced to make his court to us himself, in order to have our assistance for preserving Sicily & his dominions in Italy’.
However laudable the objective and elaborated the preventive attack on criticism may be, Walpole sees weaknesses. Both in method and in heavy dependence on political conjuncture. As of August 1725, he interprets the Imperial threat as real, but still far from material. Sudden ill health with children being not uncommon at the time, either the Archduchess or Don Carlos could die before Charles VI himself. Moreover, the marriage had until then only been a rumor and in no sense a publicly announced diplomatic fact. Firmness should thus be expressed in negotiations, and not in confrontational threats of intervention55.
In order to achieve the latter (bringing the Emperor to reason through talks), France, Britain and Holland are tied together through the system of the Triple (Holland-Britain-France, 1717) and Quadruple Alliances (cf. supra). If the Emperor was to effectively announce a wedding between his eldest daughter and Don Carlos, Townshend’s plan could be brought in as a modality of execution against the Emperor. But not in any way as a preventive means of action.
To Walpole’s impression, the Balance of Power-thinking by which Townshend is guided, is a concept of the diplomatic community, but does not represent the confrontational and xenophobic public opinion56. ‘[…] the people of England and Holland must see in a [f. 123 r.] clearer light than I apprehend they do at present, how dangerous the Emperor’s views are like to be to the liberties of Europe, before they will relish a disposition which will interfere with some popular notions of their own, and is contrary to the maxims upon which the present possession of the low countries is founded, as expressed in the 2. Article of the Barrier Treaty’57.

@isabella @Archduke @VVD0D95 @Nmale @Vladivostock @curlyhairedhippie @Emperor Constantine
 
Out of curiosity @Nuraghe would Karl VI having a son see him more successfully implementing his reforms in Italy? Or do you think it would actually complicate matters


then a Charles VI with a son, in addition to totally derailing the WoAS, also means that he would be more inclined to want to continue with the reformist policies within the HRE and in the Habsburg possessions ( instead of wasting time convincing the jackals / other powers , to sign a simple piece of paper ), this in itself would be enormously beneficial for imperial influence and prestige within the HRE, given that Prussia would probably not rise to prominence and at the same time be unable to compete for direct influence in the politics of the Reich with the Habsburgs even in exclusively "Catholic" areas ( such as the imperial church, which could be subject to important administrative and territorial revisions ) another front heavily influenced by this would be Italy, where Habsburg control could be strengthened at least North of Rome, I certainly still see this happening a war of some kind with Spain, which will want to take back Naples and succeed, given that it is simply too far from the Austrian core, probably the Habsburgs who get something in exchange between Parma, Guastalla and Modena, and I believe that such a result in the long run is good for Austria, because they can consolidate their hold in Italy ( as well as revitalizing the region economically, especially if they include their local domains in the same free trade zone - customs compliance which in OTL included almost all of the Habsburg possessions part of the Empire )
 
then a Charles VI with a son, in addition to totally derailing the WoAS, also means that he would be more inclined to want to continue with the reformist policies within the HRE and in the Habsburg possessions ( instead of wasting time convincing the jackals / other powers , to sign a simple piece of paper ), this in itself would be enormously beneficial for imperial influence and prestige within the HRE, given that Prussia would probably not rise to prominence and at the same time be unable to compete for direct influence in the politics of the Reich with the Habsburgs even in exclusively "Catholic" areas ( such as the imperial church, which could be subject to important administrative and territorial revisions ) another front heavily influenced by this would be Italy, where Habsburg control could be strengthened at least North of Rome, I certainly still see this happening a war of some kind with Spain, which will want to take back Naples and succeed, given that it is simply too far from the Austrian core, probably the Habsburgs who get something in exchange between Parma, Guastalla and Modena, and I believe that such a result in the long run is good for Austria, because they can consolidate their hold in Italy ( as well as revitalizing the region economically, especially if they include their local domains in the same free trade zone - customs compliance which in OTL included almost all of the Habsburg possessions part of the Empire )


now if we consider that technically Charles in Otl actually tried to implement his brother's policies, with very mixed results, it may be that with a son he feels safer to try again, so I could see that the ones he would give his priority to are the judicial apparatus ( Joseph I wanted to simplify and codify single legal corpus for the entire Reich, following the territorial administration of the Habsburg possessions and wanted to unify the archduchy both territorially and at the level of government ( for example he wanted to make the whole of Austria and Bohemia a single economic hub without internal customs, so as to favor the trade of the smaller states with the Habsburg territories, rather than the internal trade ( which Charles VI did in part in Otl anyway and which could also extend to Italian possessions ), then I know that he had an interest in improving the communication network of the Empire ( both the road and river, as well as a somewhat exaggerated project for the time, namely the expansion of the Brenner Pass and the construction of a new Alpine crossing ), then there was the whole question of streamlining the imperial circles, considered very cumbersome, he practically wanted to reduce the number of the Kreis and at the same time prevent a single entity ( outside of Austria ) from being able to command them easily, in a few words from what I understood he wanted to make sure that the circles were 5 / 6 and divided by region ( concrete example, he wanted to make only one Rhine circle, instead of the 2 of Otl ), is the simplification of the minor ecclesiastical territories was part of this project, given that instead of the 80 existing ecclesiastical states in Otl he wanted to reduce the number to at least 1/4, therefore to 20 in total, all more or less capable of resisting and defending themselves for a little, rich and large enough not to be easily trampled upon by their princely neighbors, as well as greatly reducing the existing customs in the Empire, particularly in the territories neighboring the imperial possessions ( furthermore, it is very likely that a good part of the clergy released from their temporal duties in the Reich could be reinstated in other areas or used for a generational change within the Catholic hierarchy, also favoring the careers of some of them in Rome ), all things that Charles might want to dust off or at least add to his Ostend company ( which could survive and prosper, which if combined with reforms in the HRE, could becoming a much cheaper alternative to English trade, certainly London could protest but it doesn't have a position of OTL bargaining power ) so at least who does not want to deal individually with the Bourbons, will be forced to bite the bullet
 
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I have heard alot about the mediatization reform efforts in the HRE, what was the Popes opinion about it? Did he even have one or was it regarded as a internal HRE affair? Was it more long the lines of the French confiscation of ecclesial territory or more aligning the smaller territories with bigger ecclesial estates so to have less independent imperial churches etc?
 
I have heard alot about the mediatization reform efforts in the HRE, what was the Popes opinion about it? Did he even have one or was it regarded as a internal HRE affair? Was it more long the lines of the French confiscation of ecclesial territory or more aligning the smaller territories with bigger ecclesial estates so to have less independent imperial churches etc?

technically the Habsburgs, to carry out their reform projects, usually exploited their influence in Rome to obtain papal support ( also sponsoring the construction of city monuments or favoring the careers of certain cardinals ) , both by making promises and subtle threats ( mainly not to intervene in the event of a diplomatic clash or even war between the papacy and the Bourbons or to be able to create problems in the curia ) normally the Pope would quite agree, given that the reforms would make his control over the German church much simpler ( furthermore it would also be heavily strengthened, given that barring some annexations by the Habsburgs , the ecclesiastical territories would be unified among themselves , It is primarily the biggest beneficiaries of this will be the 3 Electors, with Munster, Wurzburg and Augsburg following ( with Salzburg, Trent and Liège which may be subject to small border changes ), to conclude most of these discussions were usually previously established agreements, in which the Pope would obtain fiscal gains, greater influence in the imperial episcopal hierarchy and a strengthening of the church against pressure of the princely states, all this also greatly favored the Habsburgs who obtained easier management of the HRE government through the use of the church which could overcome the obstacles posed by the princes, as well as an increase in its representatives in the curia, the real problem was not Rome, but the German clergy themselves and the imperial princes who frowned on these maneuvers which, according to them, were going to affect " they liberties ", therefore, through alliances or otherwise they almost always managed to block every attempt
 
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technically the Habsburgs, to carry out their reform projects, usually exploited their influence in Rome to obtain papal support ( also sponsoring the construction of city monuments or favoring the careers of certain cardinals ) , both by making promises and subtle threats ( mainly not to intervene in the event of a diplomatic clash or even war between the papacy and the Bourbons or to be able to create problems in the curia ) normally the Pope would quite agree, given that the reforms would make his control over the German church much simpler ( furthermore it would also be heavily strengthened, given that barring some annexations by the Habsburgs , the ecclesiastical territories would be unified among themselves , It is primarily the biggest beneficiaries of this will be the 3 Electors, with Munster, Wurzburg and Augsburg following ( with Salzburg, Trent and Liège which may be subject to small border changes ), to conclude most of these discussions were usually previously established agreements, in which the Pope would obtain fiscal gains, greater influence in the imperial episcopal hierarchy and a strengthening of the church against pressure of the princely states, all this also greatly favored the Habsburgs who obtained easier management of the HRE government through the use of the church which could overcome the obstacles posed by the princes, as well as an increase in its representatives in the curia, the real problem was not Rome, but the German clergy themselves and the imperial princes who frowned on these maneuvers which, according to them, were going to affect " they liberties ", therefore, through alliances or otherwise they almost always managed to block every attempt



now there is another question to ask, how would these policies be received by the rest of the Reichstag, because they will certainly make a lot of noise within the empire, not always in a positive way, it is certainly considering the tensions that were circulating in that period ( I am thinking of the question between Hohenzollern, Wittelsbach and Neuburg for Julich - Kleve ) or George II's attempts to further expand his possessions ( see his insistence on taking part in the War of the Polish Succession in conflict with parliament ) can become the fuse that can trigger a chain reaction, certainly Austria can offer as a "bribe" to the Electors, a proposed imperial law which similarly to what was tried in the archducal territories, recognizes the permission for the Princes to unify their territories at a central level, canceling locally every fiscal and administrative barrier, I believe that if this were not enough, Charles or his son Hansl could also push to sacrifice some small imperial / ecclesiastical fiefdom in exchange for the Electors' support for the Reformation

Now although I am not an expert in this field, I believe that the only possible and simultaneously advantageous alliances for the Habsburgs are either with France ( but the only scenario in which I see it really possible is after a peace treaty, a Spanish Infanta is much more likely, but technically he wouldn't bring much to the table ) or aim for a Hohenzollern princess ( as many have previously suggested ) or a British proxy ( given the impossibility of obtaining a Hanoverian bride, due to the Act of Settlement ), I certainly don't rule out other possibilities, but I don't have any in mind at the moment
 
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