WI: Hansl im Keller, or a Son for Karl VI?

Kellan Sullivan

In 1723, during the sojourn of the Emperor and Empress in Prague for his coronation as "king of Bohemia"[1] the empress duly became pregnant. When this news was announced at the queen's coronation banquet, those present raised their glasses to "Hansl im Keller" (Little Johnny in the Cellar).[2]

In May following, the empress gave birth to Karl Johann Nepomuck [3] of Austria.

[1] there was an old Bohemian superstition that a son would only be born to a rightfully crowned Bohemian king. This is what spurred Karl VI's coronation in 1723 OTL as well. Unfortunately, all he got was another daughter
[2] again, OTL. When the news was announced at the coronation banquet, the delegates likewise raised a glass in toast to "Johnny in the Cellar"
[3] boy is born on St. John's Day (16 May), St. John Nepomuk was beatified in 1721 but only canonized in 1729. Was going to go with Jan-Evangelista (St. John the Evangelist) whose feast is on 8 May, but then saw that's only in the Orthodox church.
 

Kellan Sullivan

So this isn't a TL, but I thought it could be an interesting POD to look at. Lot of threads dealing with Maria Theresia being born male, or her brother surviving. However, Karl's OTL behaviour in Prague (illustrated above) shows that by 1723/1724 he was desperate.
OTOH, after her "failure" in 1724, Elisabeth Christine's drinking got even worse and the woman went into a severe depression which led to more drinking. So that by the 1730s the woman who had once been the most beautiful princess in Germany, became a wine-sodden corpulent matron who struggled to breathe, suffered from rheumatism and needed a winch to help her sit down/get up from a chair/bed.

@Jan Olbracht @isabella @JonasResende @Valena @VVD0D95 @Emperor Constantine @Zygmunt Stary@CaptainShadow @Jürgen
 
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VVD0D95

Please tell me Karl will actually tutor his male heir I. How to be a ruler. Given she had no tutoring Maria Theresa turned out pretty good, what her brother would be like with tutoring is something I’ve always wanted to see
 

Kellan Sullivan

VVD0D95 said:
Please tell me Karl will actually tutor his male heir I. How to be a ruler. Given she had no tutoring Maria Theresa turned out pretty good, what her brother would be like with tutoring is something I’ve always wanted to see
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I don't know if Karl would be any good at tutoring his son. Mean, his deathbed advice to Maria Theresia OTL was to keep all his ministers and listen to what they say. True, that could've just been because she was a woman and he felt a woman couldn't rule, but the fact that he spent as long as he did collecting useless signatures on an equally useless scrap of paper like the Pragmatic Sanction (when both his wife and Prince Eugen of Savoy told him to build up the army instead) shows he had pretty big delusions
 

VVD0D95

Kellan Sullivan said:
I don't know if Karl would be any good at tutoring his son. Mean, his deathbed advice to Maria Theresia OTL was to keep all his ministers and listen to what they say. True, that could've just been because she was a woman and he felt a woman couldn't rule, but the fact that he spent as long as he did collecting useless signatures on an equally useless scrap of paper like the Pragmatic Sanction (when both his wife and Prince Eugen of Savoy told him to build up the army instead) shows he had pretty big delusions
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This is true which does suggest the lads going to be facing similar obstacles minus the gender one. And does make me wonder would Frederick still want Silesia here? Though of course without the need for pragmatic sanction he might get the chance to sort some stuff out re the army abd such
 

Nmale

VVD0D95 said:
This is true which does suggest the lads going to be facing similar obstacles minus the gender one. And does make me wonder would Frederick still want Silesia here? Though of course without the need for pragmatic sanction he might get the chance to sort some stuff out re the army abd such
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Come 1740, when Karl VI eats those shrooms and kicks the bucket, Karl Johann will only be 16, not old enough to reign on his own, so he will need a Regent for two years I believe. I think at this point, even though we have a male heir, Frederick the Great will smell blood in the water and still invade Silesia. Even though it’s possible that the Habsburg's will be in a better financial and military position, Karl VI was still pretty incompetent so I can’t see them being that much better off. With an underage kid as king and the nobles likely fighting over him, a pretty good opportunity is presented to Frederick.
 

Kellan Sullivan

VVD0D95 said:
This is true which does suggest the lads going to be facing similar obstacles minus the gender one. And does make me wonder would Frederick still want Silesia here? Though of course without the need for pragmatic sanction he might get the chance to sort some stuff out re the army abd such
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IIRC Fritz used the argument that a) Silesia was his birthright that Emperor Leopold had screwed his grandpa out of; and b) since Karl VI was Fritz's godfather and Karl had no son/nephew, that made Fritz the next best thing.

The lack of pragmatic sanction and army reforms mean that Austria might hang on to Serbia (it got its ass handed to them by the Turks in the Treaty of Belgrade of 1739), and might perform differently/better in the War of the Polish Succession (which I could still see happening).
 

VVD0D95

Nmale said:
Come 1740, when Karl VI eats those shrooms and kicks the bucket, Karl Johann will only be 16, not old enough to reign on his own, so he will need a Regent for two years I believe. I think at this point, even though we have a male heir, Frederick the Great will smell blood in the water and still invade Silesia. Even though it’s possible that the Habsburg's will be in a better financial and military position, Karl VI was still pretty incompetent so I can’t see them being that much better off. With an underage kid as king and the nobles likely fighting over him, a pretty good opportunity is presented to Frederick.
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Hmm interesting one imagines that the electors would start their squabbling over a regency as well
 

Kellan Sullivan

Nmale said:
Come 1740, when Karl VI eats those shrooms and kicks the bucket, Karl Johann will only be 16, not old enough to reign on his own, so he will need a Regent for two years I believe. I think at this point, even though we have a male heir, Frederick the Great will smell blood in the water and still invade Silesia. Even though it’s possible that the Habsburg's will be in a better financial and military position, Karl VI was still pretty incompetent so I can’t see them being that much better off. With an underage kid as king and the nobles likely fighting over him, a pretty good opportunity is presented to Frederick.
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While Karl Johann isn't old enough to be elected emperor, if Karl VI has got him made "king of the Romans" already, then the empire aill be administered by the vicars (elector of Saxony and the Palatinate) until the boy is 18
 

VVD0D95

Kellan Sullivan said:
IIRC Fritz used the argument that a) Silesia was his birthright that Emperor Leopold had screwed his grandpa out of; and b) since Karl VI was Fritz's godfather and Karl had no son/nephew, that made Fritz the next best thing.

The lack of pragmatic sanction and army reforms mean that Austria might hang on to Serbia (it got its ass handed to them by the Turks in the Treaty of Belgrade of 1739), and might perform differently/better in the War of the Polish Succession (which I could still see happening).
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Now that would be very interesting and of course Fritz has no leg to stand on one imagines then?
 

Nmale

Kellan Sullivan said:
Why Karl VI would do well to get the boy elected king of the Romans.
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Karl VI would do well to get Karl elected King of the Romans, but knowing how competent Karl VI was I doubt he would do it while his son was so young. He’d probably end up thinking I’ll wait until he’s 18 or so and then end up dying without his son being elected King of the Romans. This would have really interesting implications to say the least come the Imperial Election. At least that’s what I think, my opinion of Karl VI is not high if you couldn’t tell already.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Nmale said:
Karl VI would do well to get Karl elected King of the Romans, but knowing how competent Karl VI was I doubt he would do it while his son was so young. He’d probably end up thinking I’ll wait until he’s 18 or so and then end up dying without his son being elected King of the Romans. This would have really interesting implications to say the least come the Imperial Election. At least that’s what I think, my opinion of Karl VI is not high if you couldn’t tell already.
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IIRC Joseph I was elected at age 9 after no sons for the emperor since his own election. So Karl would have THAT example
 

isabella

Well Frederick would get no support and Austrian‘s ATL position would be much stronger without any need to get recognition for the Prammatica Sanction and also neither Bavaria or Saxony would have any claim on Austrian lands. If Karl had been able to get his son already elected as King of the Romans then Imperial succession also would be secure, if he still died as OTL, something who I find pretty unlikely as a son would likely butterfly his OTL death. What I can see is Maria Theresia marrying totally differently than OTL as most likely she would be married to Charles of Spain with (recognition of his conquest of) Naples and Sicily as dowry. Also ATL Charles is more likely to go on modernising the army once he do not need to acquire benevolences and sign treaties at the OTL rhythm. I wonder who will be the princess chosen as bride for Karl Johann and if Karl VI and Elisabeth Christine would have more children
 

VVD0D95

isabella said:
Well Frederick would get no support and Austrian‘s ATL position would be much stronger without any need to get recognition for the Prammatica Sanction and also neither Bavaria or Saxony would have any claim on Austrian lands. If Karl had been able to get his son already elected as King of the Romans then Imperial succession also would be secure, if he still died as OTL, something who I find pretty unlikely as a son would likely butterfly his OTL death. What I can see is Maria Theresia marrying totally differently than OTL as most likely she would be married to Charles of Spain with (recognition of his conquest of) Naples and Sicily as dowry. Also ATL Charles is more likely to go on modernising the army once he do not need to acquire benevolences and sign treaties at the OTL rhythm. I wonder who will be the princess chosen as bride for Karl Johann and if Karl VI and Elisabeth Christine would have more children
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A marriage to Bavaria or saxont perhaps? To shore things up there?
 

Nmale

isabella said:
Bavaria, Saxony sure but I would not exclude another Bourbon match in France or more likely Spain.
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Agreed. At this point Spain had princesses around the same age as Karl Johann, with princesses being born in 1726 and 1729.
 
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