WI: Dogs Considered Unclean by Christianity

[Wanderlust]

Bit of an off-the-wall one here.

At the founding of Christianity, Dogs are enshrined as an unclean animal. It's not unreasonable - they eat their own faeces, they lick their balls, they prey on the weak, and they eat carrion. Their benefits are overlooked, and they go down in history as generally quite nasty things, to the extent that they're not 'man's best friend' in the Western world, don't continue to be domesticated, except by the occasional crazy woman living down the street (this timeline's 'Crazy Cat Lady'), and so the western world doesn't really see their benefits. Cats and other animals are unaffected.

Discuss. How much is humanity affected? How much of what dogs historically did can be performed by other animals? Like tamed Cats bred for size, obedience, etc?

 

[The Professor]

Hmmm.

What it probably does is slow down the takeup of Christianity in Europe outside the Mediterranean.

Dogs come from our nomadic ancestry and were generally "bred" to help hunt and to guard our family and property. They were generally working animals until settlement and subsequent urbanisation allowed their exploitation as pets.

Since Europe - especially Northern Europe - urbanised somewhat later than the Mediterranean, dogs were more likely to be working animals there. Plus farming hadn't yet cleared the wilds of bears and wolves. So your average Northern European - your Gauls, Britons, Irish, and Germans - are less likely to see the benefits of becoming Doghating Christian if it leaves them and their food noticeably more at risk.

This means that in order for Christian missionaries to succeed in Northern Europe they'll eventually have to drop the doghating aspect. At least a far as allowing them to be used in hunting anyways.

This could mean that dogs are never accepted as pets in Europe so more cats and ferrets; and likely cats would not be associated with "dark forces" quite so much. Might we also see more takeup of pigs as pets? They were a common household animal long into the middle ages since they're social, they clean up scrap food (so less mice/rats), and can be used as food. Maybe we end up with a pygmy pet version?

 

[Flocculencio]

You actually have an OTL case study- dogs are considered unclean in Islam but you still see them being widely used by herdsmen in places like Central Asia and North India. Conversely the Malays find dogs unbearable- not coincidentally the Malays don't really depend on herding for much of their diet. Religious strictures are all very well but if people need to find ways to bend the rules they will.

Essentially dogs will be seen purely as working animals- all very well for herding, hunting and protection but they won't be seen as pets. They'll have a place where people herd livestock but you probably won't see many in towns. Also no toy dogs.

 

[Wanderlust]

Very good, both of you.

Yes, the sheer pragmatism of using Dogs for things and the fact they are already so widely used is a tough hurdle to overcome. Flocc, yes, that's mostly what I was thinking of, except I want to go further somehow. To eliminate Dogs as much as possible and replace them. Though then it only seems as if, as Prof suggests, Christianity will only be limited as a result.

Howabout if Dogs are scapegoated as causing a bubonic plague-alike?

And Professor... Now I'm imagining Paris Hilton with a minipig in her handbag x_x

 

[The Professor]

Very good, both of you.

Yes, the sheer pragmatism of using Dogs for things and the fact they are already so widely used is a tough hurdle to overcome. Flocc, yes, that's mostly what I was thinking of, except I want to go further somehow. To eliminate Dogs as much as possible and replace them. Though then it only seems as if, as Prof suggests, Christianity will only be limited as a result.

Howabout if Dogs are scapegoated as causing a bubonic plague-alike?

And Professor... Now I'm imagining Paris Hilton with a minipig in her handbag x_x

Hehe, except that in the 1900s TTL minipigs are probably replaced with their fluffier version: guinea-pigs .

IIRC cats were also scapegoated as causing the black/bubonic plague. It's why it was so much worse as cats were keeping the rat population down in the first place.
If dogs are scapegoated > more cats > less rats > less plague > less likely that rat fleas identified as cause later > longer to erradicate plague?

 

[Alex Richards]

Hehe, except that in the 1900s TTL minipigs are probably replaced with their fluffier version: guinea-pigs .

IIRC cats were also scapegoated as causing the black/bubonic plague. It's why it was so much worse as cats were keeping the rat population down in the first place.
If dogs are scapegoated > more cats > less rats > less plague > less likely that rat fleas identified as cause later > longer to erradicate plague?

Hang on, that's a clear way to enable the whole unclean dogs thing to continue, in that the execution of the dogs leads to a reduction in the plague.

I expect that the main dog breeds will be the Gun Dogs (labradors, retrievers etc.), the Hounds and the sheepdogs (including German Shepards).

This could have interesting effects when Christian missionaries reach Korea and find people eating dogs.

 

[A.M. Turtle]

I think we would see less plagues due to what I assume would be an increase in the cat population. Also you can't train cats they are too (for lack of a better term) "catish".

 

[Landshark]

WI: Dogs Considered Unclean by Christianity

The English would still be worshipping Thor.

 

[mailinutile2]

It's not unreasonable - they eat their own faeces, they lick their balls, they prey on the weak, and they eat carrion.

on the other hand, cats wash in their own spit

tamed Cats bred for size, obedience, etc?

You do not have a cat, do, you? otherwise you'd know, that is at the far side of ASB. Maybe even beyond it

On a more serious ground, I think we need a POD much earlier.
My point is that Christianity has Hebraic roots, and Hebraism is born in a sheepard's society.
A sheepard without a sheepdog ?

 

[counterblitzkrieg]

How would this be possible? It seems borderline ASB to me.

 

[Philip]

How would this be possible? It seems borderline ASB to me.

I won't quite call it ASB, but it would require a complete lack of pragmatism coupled with a fundamental shift in Christian theology to have this occur.

 

[Lord Grattan]

I won't quite call it ASB, but it would require a complete lack of pragmatism coupled with a fundamental shift in Christian theology to have this occur.

Absolutely.
Peter's vision- Acts 10 - would need to be different, to something like, "What God has made clean, you must not call profane [and all things, except dogs, for they are but wolves, have been made clean]."

 

[Mr Stereo1]

on the other hand, cats wash in their own spit


You do not have a cat, do, you? otherwise you'd know, that is at the far side of ASB. Maybe even beyond it

On a more serious ground, I think we need a POD much earlier.
My point is that Christianity has Hebraic roots, and Hebraism is born in a sheepard's society.
A sheepard without a sheepdog ?

True, but can you imagine how entertaining it would be to see miniture tigers acting as sheepdogs. Maybe they could domesticate the Lynx for the role, I always thought they looked cool.

 

[Cowboy]

In a Europe without dogs I would forsee entire squadrons of angry Geese hissing and pecking while they pursued the mail person down the lane.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

You actually have an OTL case study- dogs are considered unclean in Islam but you still see them being widely used by herdsmen in places like Central Asia and North India. Conversely the Malays find dogs unbearable- not coincidentally the Malays don't really depend on herding for much of their diet. Religious strictures are all very well but if people need to find ways to bend the rules they will.

Essentially dogs will be seen purely as working animals- all very well for herding, hunting and protection but they won't be seen as pets. They'll have a place where people herd livestock but you probably won't see many in towns. Also no toy dogs.

In Islam, dogs aren't unclean, just their saliva. You're supposed to wash anything they lick.

Islam is a little more "pro-Animal" than Christianity, so house pets aren't allowed because it's taking them out of their natural environment for no reason and thus cruel.

Dogs are expressly allowed for hunting, herding, and guard duty, so the examples you gave above aren't violations of the religion.

Except toy dogs, which are Satan's pets.

I think we've covered it before, but Muhammad was an urban boy, so dogs in his experience were a menace, and also, he was a crazy cat person.

 

[Red Wolf]

Islam is a little more "pro-Animal" than Christianity, so house pets aren't allowed because it's taking them out of their natural environment for no reason and thus cruel.

True, but I'm not sure how much the "no house pets" rule is followed. For example, I've heard that cats are extremely common as pets in Iran.

To the OP. This might also affect Western notions regarding other animals. My mother once theorized that bears were so beloved because they were sometimes seen as big furry dogs. In ATL, there might not be nearly the kind of romanticization of bears that's true in OTL.

 

[The Vulture]

For starters, I am ridiculously pleased by the notion, as afraid of dogs as I am.

A thought: could something like a stoat or a mongoose be domesticated and used for hunting small game? Falconry is another possibility.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

True, but I'm not sure how much the "no house pets" rule is followed. For example, I've heard that cats are extremely common as pets in Iran.

To the OP. This might also affect Western notions regarding other animals. My mother once theorized that bears were so beloved because they were sometimes seen as big furry dogs. In ATL, there might not be nearly the kind of romanticization of bears that's true in OTL.

Muhammad make an exception for cats, because he was a crazy cat person. Cats natural environment is wherever the hell they want, so there's no rule broken.

 

[Tyr]

I wonder if any muslims have ever tried the argument that its now known the natural environment of dogs is with people

 

[Douglas]

As a staunchly pro-feline person, this world sounds like a utopia.