[WI] Cruisers Group vs. Aircraft Carriers Group in 1971

[blackadam]

On Dec. 8, 1971, the U.S. Seventh Fleet received orders to dispatch Task Force 74 to the Bay of Bengal. The battle group was centered around the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, accompanied by nine other ships including a nuclear attack submarine. The move occurred in the face of opposition from the naval leadership, including Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, who knew it could achieve little.

In fact, some argue that Task Force 74 was actually intended to pressure the Soviets to make India call off the war. According to this explanation, the task force would harass Soviet ships in the Bay of Bengal, not attack India — a plan which Navy leadership thwarted by slowing the Enterprise’s cruise with a fueling stop in Singapore and assigning it to a corner of the Bay of Bengal where there was a low probability of encountering Soviet ships. They were worried an accident could provoke World War III.

Indeed, a Soviet naval task force from Vladivostok consisting of a cruiser, a destroyer and two attack submarines under the command of Adm. Vladimir Kruglyakov intercepted Task Force 74 in the makings of a deadly Cold War standoff. Kruglyakov gave a rousing account in a T.V. interviewof “encircling” the task force, surfacing his submarines in front of the Enterprise, opening the missile tubes and “blocking” the American ships

https://warisboring.com/in-1971-the-u-s-navy-almost-fought-the-soviets-over-bangladesh/

no nuclear weapons ! and who would win ?

 

[blackadam]

The US fleet was large, but in 1971, it had no F / A-18 Super Hornet or F-35C, as was the E-2D today, when the US Navy's main F-4 Phantom. The US Navy at the time was engrossed in the bombing of Vietnam. They were not able to conduct long-range reconnaissance (AEW, AWACS), or anti-submarine systems, especially defense systems. Same as Aegis today!

While the Soviet Union still maintained a large fleet of battlecruisers, attack submarines and satellite reconnaissance Legenda

 

[steamboy]

The US fleet was large, but in 1971, it had no F / A-18 Super Hornet or F-35C, as was the E-2D today, when the US Navy's main F-4 Phantom.

While the Soviet Union still maintained a large fleet of battlecruisers, attack submarines and satellite reconnaissance Legenda

There's a serious numbers and technology disparity and at this point in time 1971 the best ship the Soviets had was the Kresta II which is an anti-submarine ship (without a working main weapon, the SS-N-14 was delayed for years), the Soviet ships generally lacked for anti-shipping weapons and their main role was anti-submarine warfare. Whilst this obviously had outliers like the Kiro, Slava and Sovremmeny class, none of them exist at this point in time. and there's no Kiev's either. So we've got a 'cruiser' and 'destroyer' and two SSN's, or one might be an SSGN but then this mean a Charlie I or an Echo I, the Charlie being the far superior boat as it could fire its missiles without having to spend 5 minutes on the surface and firing from the surface. As for the ships,I would assume a Kresta I class cruiser (or maybe a Kresta II) or Kydna class. Both the Kydnya and Kresta I had SSM's but these were SS-N-3s and not the best missile in the world and if they were close enough to physically block the US ships from going past them, then inside the minimum range of them arming.

The DD could be a Kashin, again no SSM's and built for ASW.

In reality the USN ships could annihilate this Soviet group without even blinking. Their SAMs were inadequate and there's literally only 2 surface ships vs 9. The Phantom's perfectly good at carrying bombs and missiles enough to deal with these Soviet ships and the USN's ASW kit was good enough to track down the Soviet Subs and any nuclear boats the Soviets have at the time are going to be easier to find than the USN one. So basically a one sided slaughter that leads to WW3. The Soviets don't stand a chance.

Also what battlecruisers? The Kirov's dont exist at this point in time, There was no soviet big gun battlecruiser completed, and the only big gun ships still in service with the Soviet navy are the Sverdlov class and they are terrifyingly obsolete against air and sub attacks.

RE the USN's capabilities, their SAMs were at this point probably the best in the world with the Standard Missile which was a very good system (there's a reason why its still in service today) and any ASW ships will probably have an ASROC launcher onboard.

 

[SsgtC]

If things had gone pear shaped and erupted into a battle, you're looking at the most one sided victory in US Naval history.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The US fleet was large, but in 1971, it had no F / A-18 Super Hornet or F-35C, as was the E-2D today, when the US Navy's main F-4 Phantom. The US Navy at the time was engrossed in the bombing of Vietnam. They were not able to conduct long-range reconnaissance (AEW, AWACS), or anti-submarine systems, especially defense systems. Same as Aegis today!

While the Soviet Union still maintained a large fleet of battlecruisers, attack submarines and satellite reconnaissance Legenda

The US has had AEW since 1958 with the E-1 Tracer and in 1971 has the E-2 Hawkeye, A or B version for AEW and AWACS, and ASW with the SH-3 or UH-2 Helicopter, plus of course the escorts have sonar and ASROC as well as torpedoes. With the E-1/E-2 spotting the F-4 could intercept Soviet missile carriers and some of the missiles

Aegis today is a defense system

Typical air group for a supercarrier in 1965 was 2 F-4 Phantom or F-8 Crusader Squadrons, 2 A4 Skyhawk squadrons, 1 A-1 or A-6 Attack squadron, 1 A-3 or A-5 Heavy attack squadron, a recon detachment with RF-8 or RA-5 and an AEW detachment with E-1. By 1973 this was 2 F-4 Phantom or F-8 Crusader Squadrons, 2 A4 Skyhawk or A-7 Corsair II squadrons, 1A-6 Intruder Attack squadron, 1 EW detachment with EKA-3 or EA-6, a recon detachment with RF-8 or RA-5, an AEW detachment with E-2 and a helicopter unit with SH-2 or SH-3

The US used older WWII era Essex class for ASW with fixed wing S-2 Tracer or S-3 Viking as well as helicopters

If by Battlecruisers, you mean the Kirov class, not in 1971, didn't enter service until 1980. Actual Cruisers are 4 Kydna, 4 Kresta I or 3 Kresta II, as mentioned ASW ships, and a bunch of gun armed light cruisers. Only the first 8 have antiship missiles, which was SS-N-3 Shaddock which was fairly slow and could be shot down by F-4, as well as the SAMs of the escorts

 

[CV12Hornet]

Actually, the Enterprise did have an AWACS plane, the B-model of the same plane that does it today. She also likely had EKA-3B aircraft that could run jamming and tanking missions, and would definitely have three RA-5 recon aircraft.

The Soveiets, meanwhile, at best had helicopters.

This means that the Enterprise is going to find the Soviets first, and that means Enterprise is unlikely to even come under attack. How Eneterprise’s attack goes depends on which surface ships the Soviets are running, and while I haven’t been able to find much information on that, it’s likely the cruisers are going to be Sverdlovs, gun cruisers. Add in Paveway LGBs, and the Soviets are in for a bad time.

Edit: especially since the OP mandated “no nukes”, as that dramatically reduces the utility of the nuclear attack sub the Soviets have in the area.

 

[steamboy]

The DD escort in 71 is almost certinally a Kashin, or a Kidlin, there wasn't any others that were remotely modern or viable at this period other than the mass of Kotlin and Sorky class ships which were little more than a WW2 destroyer in terms of armament, equipment and role.

 

[jsb]

no nuclear weapons ! and who would win ?

This is the problem, Yes the USN easily would win but a couple of hours later Group of Soviet Forces in Germany reminds the US why killing a large number of Russian might not be a good idea when it starts to mobilize and shells the runways of the Berlin airports in response......

edit add, Pravda then probably start shouting about article 5 being defensive only and that the US started it...

 

[Alanith]

This is the problem, Yes the USN easily would win but a couple of hours later Group of Soviet Forces in Germany reminds the US why killing a large number of Russian might not be a good idea when it starts to mobilize and shells the runways of the Berlin airports in response......

Yes, that is the problem. Of course, the Soviets could always blink first and decide that maybe escalating isn't what they want to do... in which case we'll see countless threads on TTL's AH board about "WI WW3 starts on Dec 19, 1971..."

Otherwise many of us are probably never born.

 

[CV12Hornet]

RE the USN's capabilities, their SAMs were at this point probably the best in the world with the Standard Missile which was a very good system (there's a reason why its still in service today) and any ASW ships will probably have an ASROC launcher onboard.

Actually, checking the history, there might not be any Standards aboard the Enterprise’s missile escorts. My usual sources are frustratingly vague about when the converted Forrest Sherman-class destroyers switched to Standard, and the Farragut class all jumped straight from Terrier to SM-2ER in the 1980s. And the other two of Enterprise’s four escorts are Gearing FRAM cans with nothing more than guns.

 

[jsb]

Of course, the Soviets could always blink first and decide that maybe escalating isn't what they want to do.

I'm not sure what they would do but if USN sinks multiple Soviet ships this is the worse incident of the cold war making the Cuban crisis tame by comparison and this time the Soviets do have full MAD so will not necessarily think they need to back down unilaterally? I would suggest that they will want to do something in response even if its (to them) "limited" in nature, something they can do quickly like blockading Berlin where they are stronger than Western forces?

 

[sloreck]

I can't see the USN actually opening fire first. The Soviets will be spotted long before they locate the USN TG. Now, if some F4s pull a close pass over the Soviets and some ship captain shoots one down, things can go bad quickly...

 

[Dilvish]

Actually, checking the history, there might not be any Standards aboard the Enterprise’s missile escorts. My usual sources are frustratingly vague about when the converted Forrest Sherman-class destroyers switched to Standard, and the Farragut class all jumped straight from Terrier to SM-2ER in the 1980s. And the other two of Enterprise’s four escorts are Gearing FRAM cans with nothing more than guns.

What were the Enterprise's escorts in TF 74? I assume there was at least one nuclear cruiser/frigate.

 

[blackadam]

The US Navy has not been trained and has no knowledge of anti-ship missiles at the time. F-4 and RIM8 could not shoot down an P-15 Ashm at that time

The main weapon of the F-4 at that time was the AGM-65, only accurate in the range of anti-aircraft guns and the F-4 was shot down by anti-aircraft guns and SAM in Vietnam at that time.

On Soviet-era warships at time, there was many modern SAM system at the time like the M11 Shtorm and M1 Volna

In 1970, the Soviet Navy also operated the SS-N-3 Shaddock Ashm supersonic (Mach 0.9-1), on the Kynda cruiser

American warships in the 1970s did not have the capacity to fight anti-ship missiles as today, mostly ship designs such as WW2

At that time, no SeaRam, ESSM or CIWS Phalanx for defense, ESM (electronic jamming) was a Sci-Fi concept.

 

[blackadam]

The US has had AEW since 1958 with the E-1 Tracer and in 1971 has the E-2 Hawkeye, A or B version for AEW and AWACS, and ASW with the SH-3 or UH-2 Helicopter, plus of course the escorts have sonar and ASROC as well as torpedoes. With the E-1/E-2 spotting the F-4 could intercept Soviet missile carriers and some of the missiles

Aegis today is a defense system

Typical air group for a supercarrier in 1965 was 2 F-4 Phantom or F-8 Crusader Squadrons, 2 A4 Skyhawk squadrons, 1 A-1 or A-6 Attack squadron, 1 A-3 or A-5 Heavy attack squadron, a recon detachment with RF-8 or RA-5 and an AEW detachment with E-1. By 1973 this was 2 F-4 Phantom or F-8 Crusader Squadrons, 2 A4 Skyhawk or A-7 Corsair II squadrons, 1A-6 Intruder Attack squadron, 1 EW detachment with EKA-3 or EA-6, a recon detachment with RF-8 or RA-5, an AEW detachment with E-2 and a helicopter unit with SH-2 or SH-3

The US used older WWII era Essex class for ASW with fixed wing S-2 Tracer or S-3 Viking as well as helicopters

If by Battlecruisers, you mean the Kirov class, not in 1971, didn't enter service until 1980. Actual Cruisers are 4 Kydna, 4 Kresta I or 3 Kresta II, as mentioned ASW ships, and a bunch of gun armed light cruisers. Only the first 8 have antiship missiles, which was SS-N-3 Shaddock which was fairly slow and could be shot down by F-4, as well as the SAMs of the escorts

It's not really AWACS, no datalink like Link-16/11 today. The aircraft will then alert near the carrier group than today's E-2D too far 600km. It also does not have AIM-7, RIM-8 guidance capability, as today AIM-120, SM-6 is guided by E-2D

 

[jsb]

ESM (electronic jamming) was a Sci-Fi concept

Was this not used against German radio bombs in WWII by the USN/RN...?

F-4 was shot down by anti-aircraft guns and SAM in Vietnam at that time.

But just how many F4s would be shot down before dropping the bombs unlike Vietnam where they had to fly over many guns until they even got near to the target?

 

[sloreck]

The E-1/E-2 of 1971 is certainly not the highly connected E-2D of today. Having said that, the E-2 will detect the Soviet surface group well before they have a clue where the US CAG is. Now, they will detect the radar from the E-1/E-2 and know there is a US carrier group somewhere within 200nm - not terribly helpful. The AEW aircraft can get the information back to the carrier pretty easily while monitoring the Soviet surface group from a safe distance, there is no aircraft threat and they know the ranges of the SAMs and they can stay out of range. I expect the CAG will expect submarine threat, and the S-2s/S-3s will be busy as well as the destroyers who will be using active sonar.

The issue with over the horizon missiles is you have to point them in the right direction to start with and hope their terminal guidance systems pick up the targets. In this case the Soviets don't have any targeting starting point. The AEW aircraft are not stupid, when they leave station they are not going to head straight back to the carrier letting the Soviets know the bearing. If it comes to shooting, the A-6s do have SHRIKE missiles (anti-radar). This can be fired at the Soviet ships and can result in partial mission kills taking out radars in advance of any strike, and cause other damage.

 

[blackadam]

The E-1/E-2 of 1971 is certainly not the highly connected E-2D of today. Having said that, the E-2 will detect the Soviet surface group well before they have a clue where the US CAG is. Now, they will detect the radar from the E-1/E-2 and know there is a US carrier group somewhere within 200nm - not terribly helpful. The AEW aircraft can get the information back to the carrier pretty easily while monitoring the Soviet surface group from a safe distance, there is no aircraft threat and they know the ranges of the SAMs and they can stay out of range. I expect the CAG will expect submarine threat, and the S-2s/S-3s will be busy as well as the destroyers who will be using active sonar.

The issue with over the horizon missiles is you have to point them in the right direction to start with and hope their terminal guidance systems pick up the targets. In this case the Soviets don't have any targeting starting point. The AEW aircraft are not stupid, when they leave station they are not going to head straight back to the carrier letting the Soviets know the bearing. If it comes to shooting, the A-6s do have SHRIKE missiles (anti-radar). This can be fired at the Soviet ships and can result in partial mission kills taking out radars in advance of any strike, and cause other damage.

AGM-45A Shrike range is very short 16km (AGM-45B does not have in the 1971, it is between the 1970s (1972-1974). And to launcher at high altitudes. M-11 Shtorm engagement the target range of 30 km

All US Navy aircraft were shot down by Soviet air defense in North Vietnam at that time. There is no reason the Soviet naval air defense can not shoot down them as the Vietnamese did. The AGM-45 has proved to be ineffective in Vietnam and the Middle East (Yom Kippur War)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-45_Shrike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-11_Shtorm

The Soviet missile system is capable of shooting down missiles such as SHRIKE, we can see that Syria at now has shot down some modern cruise missiles (TLAM Block 4, JASSM, Storm Shadow, MDCN) and the Israeli F-16I. The S-125 also shot down the F-117 in Yugoslavia

The 1970s warnings earling like this:

Airplanes warning early they will move and eavesdrop on enemy information, take the pictures. Eavesdropping on the radio, but not locating exactly where it is today, then mark their positions on the map, then return, the aircraft-strike would engemant the point on map, unlike today the E2D, E3C directly operating, warning, targeted the entire battlefield

 

[Gudestein]

If the ships are directly on front of each other, I assume who fires first must mean a lot?

 

[CV12Hornet]

What were the Enterprise's escorts in TF 74? I assume there was at least one nuclear cruiser/frigate.

One Farragut-class DLG, one Forrest Sherman-class DD converted to a Decatur-class DDG, and two Gearing-class DD in FRAM configuration. Remarkably light, all told. An additional Decatur and two more Gearings are available, but they're Tied to the Marine group riding shotgun.

And I see blackadam is peddling his usual nonsense. Sadly, I’ll have to wait until tomorrow to properly reply.