WI: Circumpolar Russian Empire

Given that Russia would have been able to expand Alaska to the East and purchased Greenland and Iceland from Denmark, the Empire could have been an arctic circumpolar power, like in this map:

CircumRussia.png


Which consequences could have been the dominion of the Arctic/northernmost Atlantic-Pacific by the Russians in exclusive?
 
While certainly a very interesting idea, the existence of such an entity I think is very very unlikely. Even just looking at the Russian territories in the New World : Having enough power to project across the Northwest Territories but not enough to actually secure strong bases for colonial expansion like Seattle or Vancouver? Russian Alaska was historically a pretty underwhelming affair that did not garner much resource allocation from the Tsar until it's purchase by the Americans, having it have the capacity to expand across the most barren and remote regions of Canada exclusively doesn't seem too terribly likely. Russian power projection navally to Iceland and Greenland as well seems pretty implausible given that they still lack a warm water port anywhere near the North Sea.

I'm not sure what year this is supposed to be, but prior to the 20th century, these regions were remote, difficult to access by ship, and unexplored by and large. Hell, the Northwest Passage wasn't even sailed in full until 1906 - much of supposed polar maritime routes were never used in this period and even expeditions were heavily outfitted and expressly made to cut through the thick ice, commercially this won't be of a lot of value to the Russians pre-1900..

From the perspective of the Russian Empire in this scenario, maintaining strong controls and income from any of the territories expanded on the map (Northwest Territories, Iceland, Greenland) will be exceedingly difficult and I can't see it plausibly happening.
 
While certainly a very interesting idea, the existence of such an entity I think is very very unlikely. Even just looking at the Russian territories in the New World : Having enough power to project across the Northwest Territories but not enough to actually secure strong bases for colonial expansion like Seattle or Vancouver?

I'm not sure what year this is supposed to be, but prior to the 20th century, these regions were remote, difficult to access by ship, and unexplored by and large.
When making statements like this, it's important to choose our words carefully so that it doesn't sound like we're implying that the European perspective is the only one. To say that northern Canada and Greenland were "unexplored" before 1900 is to ignore the existence of the people who have inhabited those lands for thousands of years. Next time make sure to say something like, "Most Russians had very little knowledge of that area at the time" instead of "it was unexplored".
 
When making statements like this, it's important to choose our words carefully so that it doesn't sound like we're implying that the European perspective is the only one. To say that northern Canada and Greenland were "unexplored" before 1900 is to ignore the existence of the people who have inhabited those lands for thousands of years. Next time make sure to say something like, "Most Russians had very little knowledge of that area at the time" instead of "it was unexplored".
The Inuits were not in Northern Canada or Greenland for thousands of years, they expanded during the European middle ages there.
 
When making statements like this, it's important to choose our words carefully so that it doesn't sound like we're implying that the European perspective is the only one. To say that northern Canada and Greenland were "unexplored" before 1900 is to ignore the existence of the people who have inhabited those lands for thousands of years. Next time make sure to say something like, "Most Russians had very little knowledge of that area at the time" instead of "it was unexplored".

Certainly noted, although when I say "unexplored" I was discussing the ice bound seas such as the Northern Passage and seas around the Arctic in the context of colonization and maritime trade ("by ship" in my comment), rather than the lands of Northern Canada and Greenland inhabited by indigenous peoples. I think given the lack of any sort of suitable vessel to traverse the frozen oceans this far north, the terminology "unexplored" in a human context is acceptable, if a little sweeping (although, please correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know too much about the region as Russia is my area of relative expertise) I apologize for any confusion, your criticism is perfectly understandable!!
 
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Ganishka

Banned
When making statements like this, it's important to choose our words carefully so that it doesn't sound like we're implying that the European perspective is the only one. To say that northern Canada and Greenland were "unexplored" before 1900 is to ignore the existence of the people who have inhabited those lands for thousands of years. Next time make sure to say something like, "Most Russians had very little knowledge of that area at the time" instead of "it was unexplored".
The Europeans were the ones who conquered the world and created modern civilization, there's a reason why Xi Jinping wears a suit instead of an Inuit traditional piece of clothe.

And I'm not saying the Europeans were good people during their rise, they were mostly jerks, no reason to paint them in a good light for all the bad things they have done. But yeah, the continuity in relation to the contemporaneous world we live in is one constructed by the Europeans, there's no reason to deny that. Those native lands were unexplored in the context of the world civilization that exists today, one created due to the Europeans and their ruthless empire-building. All the relevant nations are pretty much Westernized today.
 
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The Europeans were the ones who conquered the world and created modern civilization, there's a reason why Xi Jinping wears a suit instead of an Inuit traditional piece of clothe.

This is a very bold statement, and completely wrong. Putting aside whether or not "civilisation" in the singular is even applicable, do you really think that modern technology is entirely a product of Europe? Modern science? Modern politics? Europe has played an important role, but far from the only one. 'Europe' itself can be an odd construction, given that it includes Russia, normally, despite it not really being in Europe, but usually excludes Turkey/the Ottoman Empire, despite this being a European state.

All the relevant nations are pretty much Westernized today.

Name a single Westernised country in Asia, other than perhaps Aus/NZ if they count as part of that region.
 
When making statements like this, it's important to choose our words carefully so that it doesn't sound like we're implying that the European perspective is the only one. To say that northern Canada and Greenland were "unexplored" before 1900 is to ignore the existence of the people who have inhabited those lands for thousands of years. Next time make sure to say something like, "Most Russians had very little knowledge of that area at the time" instead of "it was unexplored".
Taking into an account that the OP implied perspective of the Russian Empire, discussing things from that perspective is quite appropriate. Of course, if the OP was about the Inuits spreading all over the territory shown of the map, then their perspective would have to be reflected.

Term "exploring" is routinely used and there is even a notion of the "The Age of Exploration" (XV-XVII centuries) also known as "The Age of Discovery". See, for example https://www.thoughtco.com/age-of-exploration-1435006

Yes, terminology reflects the European perspective but the history does not change just because we start using euphemisms. Everybody knows that there is more than one perspective to pretty much everything so why is there a need to insist on pointing out the obvious?

However, when you start lecturing people on what in your opinion represents a correct language, be careful. Let's look at what you wrote. For example, somebody may take offensive to your statement "Most Russians had very little knowledge of that area at the time" as implying that most of them had been generally ignorant (time frame not being defined, this could be even a reference to the early modern times) and you would not be able to back up you statement with any reliable statistics showing break-up of the Empire's population by degree of a knowledge of that area and to come with an objective way to define which amount of knowledge qualifies as "very little". Without these data somebody of the excessively patriotic persuasion may counter you statement with a claim that most of the Russians had an adequate knowledge of the subject and how are you going to object to it? So, it would be necessary to point out that all these people could be quite knowledgeable in some other areas while probably some unidentified number of them were not quite competent in some specifics of the area in question. So "very little" is out.
Then, many "Russians" in question were not ethnic Russians and did not even speak Russian and as of now would consider being called that way as an offensive. So the "Russians" are out as extremely controversial and politically poisonous.
Next, a noticeable part of the population of Russian Empire lived in Asia and as such hardly represented European perspective and we have a dilemma: is saying that the area was not explored by, say, the Chukchi still a reflection of the "European perspective" or is it permissible because they are indigenous people who live in Asia?
Term "knowledge" is also reflective of the European perspective because information deemed important by the Europeans (for example, drawing maps of Greenland) would be rather irrelevant for the Inuits while the rules for proper cutting a walrus were of the primary importance to them but not of a special interest to the visiting Europeans unless they decided to live among the locals (long ago I read a book written by one such person, the rules were quite explicit and not obvious to an outsider). Taking into an account that your statement hints to the ...er.... European perspective of the "knowledge", the word is out because it is too vague and too controversial.
The list of the potential offensives in your single paragraph is quite long for someone who is reprimanding others. Relatively (no guarantee for 100%) non-offensive formula would be something along the lines "allegedly, an unidentified majority of the members of the various ethnic entities populating territory of the Russian Empire in 1900 never had been in Canada and Greenland." :)
 
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Given that Russia would have been able to expand Alaska to the East and purchased Greenland and Iceland from Denmark, the Empire could have been an arctic circumpolar power, like in this map:

View attachment 572903

Which consequences could have been the dominion of the Arctic/northernmost Atlantic-Pacific by the Russians in exclusive?
Why would Russia Greenland and Iceland from Denmark to start with? The proposed expansion should make some sense from the Russian perspective for it to happen and it is rather hard to imagine what could it be. What would be there worthy of buying?

Then goes time frame. The French started populating Canada in the early XVII. By that time Russia was still far away from the Pacific coast, which , in practical terms was reached only in the 1630s with no noticeable population there prior to mid-XIX. Alaska had Russian population amounting to few hundreds even by the time of the Purchase so how the whole Northern Canada could be populated to some noticeable level (and held against the Brits) .

Then goes Northern Norway and Finland. Finland was conquered from Sweden but you are adding a war with Denmark-Norway as well.

But if we waive all these questions and related changes in history, the consequences would be minimal: Russian population was relatively small until second half of the XIX so there could be only a token Russian presence and no way to enforce restrictions on fishing, etc. (did not happen even in OTL relative to the fishing near Sakhalin).
 
Taking into an account that the OP implied perspective of the Russian Empire, discussing things from that perspective is quite appropriate. The terminology you are trying to enforce did not exist even in 1900, forget the earlier period, so your comment is anachronistic and does not make too much sense; term "exploring" is routinely used and there is even a notion of the "The Age of Exploration" (XV-XVII centuries) also known as "The Age of Discovery". See, for example https://www.thoughtco.com/age-of-exploration-1435006
Just because western culture has a long history of dismissing the perspectives of peoples from outside Europe, doesn't mean we have to succumb to this bias as well. The way we talk about history (and alternate history) shapes the way that we, and our listeners, see the important issues we face in the present, so we must always make sure that we are talking about history in a way that is respectful and fair. Also, while I agree that Ulyanovsk was describing North America from a Russian perspective, the Russians are not the only people who will be living in this circumpolar empire, and so in order to answer the question "what will be the consequences of this empire" it is important to consider the role of the Inuit, Lingit, Dene Tha, and other native peoples who will be living in it.
 
Just because western culture has a long history of dismissing the perspectives of peoples from outside Europe, doesn't mean we have to succumb to this bias as well. The way we talk about history (and alternate history) shapes the way that we, and our listeners, see the important issues we face in the present, so we must always make sure that we are talking about history in a way that is respectful and fair. Also, while I agree that Ulyanovsk was describing North America from a Russian perspective, the Russians are not the only people who will be living in this circumpolar empire, and so in order to answer the question "what will be the consequences of this empire" it is important to consider the role of the Inuit, Lingit, Dene Tha, and other native peoples who will be living in it.
Term "explorer" does not have any negative bias. It is widely used and if you are imagining some bad things, it is entirely up to you. Unless mediator declares this word a taboo, it can be used in the posts. Of course, you are totally free not to use it but lecturing others is a little bit presumptuous.

In the edited version of the post to which you are answering I pointed out to the numerous potential "offensives" which could be found in your post if one decides to go your way. There is absolutely nothing unfair in the well-established terminology unless somebody starts making disparaging remarks about "inferiority", etc. BTW, FYI, the Russians were not the only people who lived in the OTL Russian Empire and this applies to the numerous "native people" of the Far North who live in Russia right now. So a little bit of a familiarity with the subject (easily available on wiki) would give you an adequate answer to your question.
 
Ummm... yeah. Believe that one definitely qualifies as a Tsarwank :p
Do you think that these acquisitions would really elevate prestige of the Russian rulers? They (all the way to AII) already could claim “state spreading to three parts of the world” so adding more territories in one of these “parts” hardly could be important unless there is some obvious wealth attached. So what substantial economic gain could be associated with that expansion? OTOH, holding these areas against pretty much any pressure would be close to impossible taking into an account general weakness of the Russian navy (and economy in general) and inability to provide them with the considerable numbers of the “Russian” population.
So, from the Russian imperial perspective this would mean more problems than gain. With the same success one can talk about Russia declaring Antarctica it’s property due to the fact that Bellinsghausen got to its coast 3 days before the Brits and 10 months before the Americans. What sense would it make? 😜
 
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