WI Catherine of Braganza didn't miscarry and had four healthy daughters?

Zazou

What if Catherine had carried her pregnancies to term and had four daughters?

Charles II of England m. Catherine of Braganza
  1. Catherine (1662)
  2. Henrietta Luisa (1666)
  3. Charlotte (1668)
  4. Elizabeth (1669)
    Would the eldest be educated like a prince and treated as an heir? I assume that politically it would make the most sense for her prince consort to be a protestant second son from a foreign dynasty. Who would be the best candidates? Would Charles use the marriage of his other daughters to gain support for his heir? If so, how?
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

Well the easiest thing would be if butterflies resulted in a surviving son for James of York (born by 1669 at the latest). Simply marry the eldest daughter to her male cousin and boom, problems all solved, dynasty is secure.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Tyler96 said:
Would their cousins OTL husbands be on the table?
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Not likely. Asecond son/younger brother of a Danish king equally so. This isn't Victoria's looking for sons-in-law who won't takeher skivvies...I mean daughters...away. Likely a Danish match is Charlotte/Elizabeth with Frederik IV rather than a marriage for George.

A Dutch match - agewise - will only make sense for Catherine. And William III was BARELY considered important enough for a king's niece, much less the eldest daughter of the king of England. Likely, he marries Liselotte instead and their son marries the youngest daughter.
Zazou said:
Would the eldest be educated like a prince and treated as an heir? I assume that politically it would make the most sense for her prince consort to be a protestant second son from a foreign dynasty.
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Also, Catherine of Braganza will still be able to have kids (theoretically) until 1673 or so (1680 at a stretch - although I suspect by about 1673-75 Charles will figure writing's on the wall), so Charles might "live in hope".

As for her education, Karl VI is an example of education. Even after it became clear that his wife couldn't give him a son, he did nothing about Maria Theresia's education to prepare her. Same for Anna Leopoldovna (Anna Ivanovna did nothing to prepare the girl). Catherine the Great and Elizabeth I were the sort of women who weren't educated for it, but they both had a fair amount of nous and knowing when to keep your mouth shut. Maria Theresia's education was basically "on the job training".

Essentially, Charles II could be the sort that doesn't bother educating his daughter (MaryII and Anne certainly had very little political education) either because he HOPES for a son or because he KNOWS that her HUSBAND (whoever he may be - Friedrich August of Hannover is a 6fttall dreamboat reincarnation of his uncle Prince Rupert (@Valena )) will rule, not her. Yes, England had Jane, Mary and Elizabeth, but England also had queens who were trophy wives (Mary II, Victoria). Or Charles could have his daughters taught (in a way that Mary, Anne and Victoria certainly weren't) and chose a husband who's a pretty idiot for the royal stud (Darnley, Georg of Denmark etc).
 
Valena

Valena

Kellan Sullivan said:
Essentially, Charles II could be the sort that doesn't bother educating his daughter (MaryII and Anne certainly had very little political education) either because he HOPES for a son or because he KNOWS that her HUSBAND (whoever he may be - Friedrich August of Hannover is a 6fttall dreamboat reincarnation of his uncle Prince Rupert (@Valena )) will rule, not her. Yes, England had Jane, Mary and Elizabeth, but England also had queens who were trophy wives (Mary II, Victoria). Or Charles could have his daughters taught (in a way that Mary, Anne and Victoria certainly weren't) and chose a husband who's a pretty idiot for the royal stud (Darnley, Georg of Denmark etc).
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Friedrich August is handsome but not an idiot, and the second son can be handwaved because a personal union with something German is a no-no. Though it is not noted that he took after his uncle in anything but looks and military talents, though not everyone should be a Rennaissance man. He would be much more liked by Charles, it seems, than both Georges (of Denmark/of Hanover).
Him being from a relatively minor state would also avoid fuss that would have been created should a brother to King of Demark or something made King Consort of Britain.

Any of the Duke of York's sons surviving would be pigenoholed for a King Consort because securing House of Stuart.
 
Valena

Valena

I wonder if Charles II would try and use the betrothal of Henriette Louise to Dauphin/Duke of Valois/Duke of Anjou while he lives as a leverage for securing French neutrality in Second Anglo-Dutch war.
 
The_Most_Happy

The_Most_Happy

Personally, my vote would be for Catherine to marry her cousin, the son of the Duke of York, and keep the Stuart line going. This hinges on him being raised a Protestant a la his OTL sisters, Mary and Anne. If he shouldn't survive, the next best bet would be the previously mentioned Prince Friedrich August of Hanover.

I would recommend having Henrietta Luisa also marry a Protestant - George of Hanover would actually work nicely, since he is already in line to the throne. Otherwise, I would recommend a second son from another Protestant monarchy.

As for Charlotte, it would most likely be a Protestant King or, if you wanted to get creative, have her marry a surviving son of either of her Portuguese uncles, Afonso VI or Pedro II. You could swap out Pedro's daughter, Isabel Luisa, from his first marriage for a boy. Despite the Catholic issue, this actually wouldn't be too hard to swing since Portugal and England had one of the oldest alliances in Europe.

Finally, for Elizabeth, I agree that she is the only daughter who could marry Le Grand Dauphin, particularly as at least one of her elder sisters would have had a child or two by the time she married to push her firmly down the line of succession.

Charles and Catherine could have quite a coterie of daughters, if they play their cards right. The Queen of Great Britain, the Queen or at least Dauphine of France, and possibly two more queens, depending on how Henrietta Luisa and Charlotte marry. Sounds like a great timeline '- can't wait to read it!
 
Valena

Valena

That said, second marriage of Duke of York would be unlikely to get greenlighted, as surviving son from it would not be old enough to marry Catherine (if there is no surviving sons from first one) - and until 1673 Charles may still hope for a son.

And France would settle on Charlotte, thoughn they would try and get Henriette Louise. Elisabeth is too young to be sold to them.

An interesting thing for dynastic dynamics in Europe is swapping the genders of single children of Nemours sister (so Isabel Luisa is a (sickly) Infante, and Duke of Savoy is born a girl). That may prompt Savoyard succession crisis, and it may be a morbid kind of fun ATL military conflicts frequently are.

Henriette Luise is not marrying George of Hanover, if his younger brother is used for Prince Consort material. Would be insulting to these Welfs.
 
Valena

Valena

A knock-off from this is the fact that Mary and Anne of York can well be raised Catholic-friendly in these scenarios, and used in Catholic matches (an ATL Portuguese infante/an Orleans kid) without much fuss and wuss. So they may be well offered in any treaties circa 1666-1667 as placeholder brides until it becomes clear that Catherine Braganza is not going to give birth to a son.
Some of these placeholder things is going to come true.

Regarding matches:
Catherine - either a surviving York son from 1st marriage or Friedrich Augustus of Hanover.
Henriette Louise - the most prestigious Protestant groom for her that does not insult anyone would be John George IV of Saxony (though it may come with its own minuses); George of Denmark is possible if alliance with Denmark to balance it against the Netherlands is needed.
Charlotte - the first girl to actually be used in Catholic matches.
Elisabeth - her betrothal to Crown Prince of Denmark may be prefered as an alternative to George + Henriette Louise match.
 

Zazou

Charles II King of England, Scotland, and Ireland (1630-1685) m. Catherine of Braganza (1638-1705)
  1. Catherine I Queen Regent of England, Scotland, and Ireland (1662-1717) m. Friedrich August of Hanover (1661-1690)
  2. Henrietta Luisa of England (1666-1721) m. John George IV of Saxony (1668-1694)
  3. Charlotte of England (1668 - 1725) m. Louis, The Grand Dauphin (1661-1711)
  4. Elizabeth of England (1669-1729) m. Frederick IV of Denmark and Norway (1671-1730)
James Duke of York (1633-1688) m. Anne Hyde (1637-71)
  1. Mary of England (1662-1694) m. William II of Orange (1650-1702)
  2. Anne of England (1665-1707) m. Philippe Charles Duke of Orleans (1664-1709)
These matches have interesting implications for the War of Spanish Succession. England would want to rein in Frances' power. However, having the Queen's nephew on the Spanish throne would be more advantageous than Archduke Charles.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Zazou said:
Charles II King of England, Scotland, and Ireland (1630-1685) m. Catherine of Braganza (1638-1705)
  1. Catherine I Queen Regent of England, Scotland, and Ireland (1662-1717) m. Friedrich August of Hanover (1661-1690)
  2. Henrietta Luisa of England (1666-1721) m. John George IV of Saxony (1668-1694)
  3. Charlotte of England (1668 - 1725) m. Louis, The Grand Dauphin (1661-1711)
  4. Elizabeth of England (1669-1729) m. Frederick IV of Denmark and Norway (1671-1730)
James Duke of York (1633-1688) m. Anne Hyde (1637-71)
  1. Mary of England (1662-1694) m. William II of Orange (1650-1702)
  2. Anne of England (1665-1707) m. Carlos II of Spain (b.1661) or Pedro II of Portugal (b.1648)[1]
These matches have interesting implications for the War of Spanish Succession. England would want to rein in Frances' power. However, having the Queen's nephew on the Spanish throne would be more advantageous than Archduke Charles.[2]
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[1] James wanted the first match (he actually wanted Mary to marry the dauphin and Anne to Carlos) while the second one, if Pedro II has no son by his first marriage is a good way for Portugal to get back Tangiers (especially if England doesn't want it).
[2] OTL War of the Spanish Succession is so far in the future that Catherine I is likely to be a grandmother already by the time it breaks out. That said, we have no proof that a) the dauphin is going to leave more than one son by Charlotte - they could have no kids or only daughters; and b) that Margarita Teresa's line of Maria Antonia >Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria was going to go extinct. Hell, just like the dauphin has only daughters, one of Margarita's sons may survive (and Margarita won't be exhausted by six pregnancies and die whilst pregnant with her sixth child, which means James II gets to marry Klaudia Felizitas as a second wife, which means Leopold might skip straight from wife no. 1 to wife no. 3, or he might go with James' daughter (Mary)), or both her daughters survive to leave issue. Karl VI's birth would only be around the time of Catherine I-Fritz's first kid. So to posit that somehow it would be beneficial to have things go as OTL when we can barely predict what's gonna happen by say, Charles II's death in 1685...is perhaps getting a bit ahead of ourselves
 

Some Bloke

curlyhairedhippie said:
Well the easiest thing would be if butterflies resulted in a surviving son for James of York (born by 1669 at the latest). Simply marry the eldest daughter to her male cousin and boom, problems all solved, dynasty is secure.
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Still kinda gross what with the couple being cousins.
 

isabella

Some Bloke said:
Also led to the Spanish Habsburgs dying out due to having a family tree smaller than a potted plant.
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That was only bad luck. Charles II was not destined to be so unhealthy simply for his bloodline. His full sister was much healthier and able to have helathy enough kids by her own maternal uncle so...
 
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