WI - Carolingian Spain / Franciberia

[Sang]

What if:
- Charlemange - in addition to his real-life conquests- also conquered all of Spain and Portugal (including the Muslim-held provinces)
OR
-Spain (and maybe also Portugal, optionally) was conquered by the Kingdom of France before 1492

The questions:
- Would it have a serious impact on later history, such as the Rise of Nationalism? Would distinct Spanish and Portuguese national idenities develop, or would they end up being completely assimilated into French?
- How much would be Spanish and Portuguese languages effected?
- Would it prevent America from getting discovered?
- Would it end up provoking a Jihad against Iberia?

 

[twovultures]

What if:
The questions:
1. Would it have a serious impact on later history, such as the Rise of Nationalism? Would distinct Spanish and Portuguese national idenities develop, or would they end up being completely assimilated into French?
2. How much would be Spanish and Portuguese languages effected?
3. Would it prevent America from getting discovered?
4. Would it end up provoking a Jihad against Iberia?

1. The butterflies from this could very well erase nationalism as we know it from history, that is possible. It is definitely certain that the nations of "Spain" and "Portugal" would be butterflied away.

2. Without hundreds of years of rule by an Arabic speaking elite, with more cultural closeness to the rest of Europe, they will be deeply affected, possibly unrecognizable to Spanish speakers IOTL.

3. No, because at this point America had been discovered at least 11,000 years ago by Siberian hunter-gatherers.

4. Considering that the Muslims had just conquered a large swath of that peninsula, I don't see them giving it up easily to some upstart, illiterate barbarian. They certainly could launch a campaign of reconquest justified by religion, i.e. a jihad.

Frankly though, I don't think that Charlemagne would be able to conquer Spain at all. If you really want to merge these countries, your best bet is a marriage in the early modern era that unites the throne of France and one or more of the Spanish countries.

 

[Faralis]

Actually IIRC Charlemagne was defeated not by Muslim troops, but by Astur mercenaries ... maybe if you butterfly this or made them choose the other side ... after all atm the Muslim control of Iberia was tenuous at least ...

 

[St. Just]

The problem with that is that the Caliphate was both militarily capable and at a good point in its history.

The Carolingian Empire would have overextended- extending basically from the Oder to Gibraltar. You would have to have a two part front against the Caliphate, which would require Charlemagne not being crowned HRE, which would then give the Franks the possibility of Roman allies, hungry for conquest. Even then, the Caliphate in that region would be incredibly strong (the Levant was their center of power), so you would also want a nomadic invasion of Persia and an Egyptian (let's say Christian) uprising at the same time.

In the aftermath of the Carolingian downfall, I'm sure a Muslim dynasty would retake at least the southern part of Iberia. You may be able to have Carolingian Catalunya, but the rest of the peninsula would fracture away, and if a Berber or Arab dynasty came from North Africa to invade the peninsula, the fractured duchies would not be able to hold on. The post-Carolingian states of Europe were very, very decentralized- Muslims could probably resist during the actual conquest (I doubt the Carolingians could even feasibly reach Gibraltar) and then reconquer the peninsula in the aftermath. Native states such as Asturias would have been weakened or replaced by Frankish nobles, and the war-torn North would have less ability to resist and reconquer. We may a Muslim Iberia (if a reconquest occurs) with the borders between al-Andalus and France defined at the Basque Country and the Ebro River.

 

[Vinland]

3. No, because at this point America had been discovered at least 11,000 years ago by Siberian hunter-gatherers.

I'm sure you know what he meant. Semantics aside, I see no reason why this ought to prevent the discovery of America by Europeans. The expeditions were mean to find a way to procure commodities such as spices without having to go through the Ottoman-contolled middle-east or round the cape of Africa. As long as the Ottomans or another hostile Muslim power controls the Middle East, and as long as there is still a demand for spices, sugar cane, silk, and other East Asian merchandise, the new world will be discovered.

As for the other points, as long as the Carolignians can maintain control of the peninsula for a few centuries, the Iberian languages would be unrecognizable, possibly gone entirely after a few more. I think it may also see a Crusade aganist the western Muslims at some point, depending on how much influence of the Pope this Empire has. Which should be a hell of a lot if it manages to stay together.

 

[Sang]

1. The butterflies from this could very well erase nationalism as we know it from history, that is possible. It is definitely certain that the nations of "Spain" and "Portugal" would be butterflied away.

Indeed.

2. Without hundreds of years of rule by an Arabic speaking elite, with more cultural closeness to the rest of Europe, they will be deeply affected, possibly unrecognizable to Spanish speakers IOTL.

Not to mention, that there was no standard orthography for Medieval Spanish and Portuguese at the time. There wasn't stand orthography for Medieval French either. So, by the time a standard orthography gets developed, Spanish and Portuguese will be heavily influenced.

3. No, because at this point America had been discovered at least 11,000 years ago by Siberian hunter-gatherers.

Sorry. I meant the discovery of the Americas by the Europeans. You know, Christopher Colombus and the likes of him.

4. Considering that the Muslims had just conquered a large swath of that peninsula, I don't see them giving it up easily to some upstart, illiterate barbarian. They certainly could launch a campaign of reconquest justified by religion, i.e. a jihad.

Indeed. And would the Jihad be a success?

Frankly though, I don't think that Charlemagne would be able to conquer Spain at all. If you really want to merge these countries, your best bet is a marriage in the early modern era that unites the throne of France and one or more of the Spanish countries.

Hmmm... kinda like the Bourbuns?
Spain was ruled by the Habsburgs for 200 years, yet, there are no German loanwords in Spanish, and there aren't any Spanish loanwords in Austrian German either.

 

[Yorel]

- Charlemange - in addition to his real-life conquests- also conquered all of Spain and Portugal (including the Muslim-held provinces)

I'm not sure Charlemagne could manage that... He had tremendeous difficulty just to create the Marcia Hispanica from what I understood. I thus doubt he could conquest Spanish lands South of River Ebro.

-Spain (and maybe also Portugal, optionally) was conquered by the Kingdom of France before 1942

Hum... I think something went wrong with the date you're talking about... Did you meant 942? Or 1492 maybe?

Having France assimilate the Spanish Kingdoms while they are still divided might be possible but it will require a lot of efforts. France will also have to concentrate its politics on its Southern frontiers...
Which doesn't really seemed easy to do since France's major opponents in its early history were the early HRE, which wished to resurrect Charlemagne's Empire, and the Angevin-ruled England, which controlled the wetsern half via Personnal Union (Normandy, Greater Anjou, Aquitaine) or Vassalage (Britanny). Though the latter didn't became a threat before 1154 and the coronation of Henry II, the former was often subject of quarrel because of the realms that once formed Middle Francia (Lotharingia in particular).

- Would it have a serious impact on later history, such as the Rise of Nationalism? Would distinct Spanish and Portuguese national idenities develop, or would they end up being completely assimilated into French?

The POD you propose might be too early to consider the Rise of Nationalism. The word itself didn't existed before the XIXth Century I believe and the movement itself started rather late in European History: the first stage probably started around the 1500s, when Monarchies were becoming centralized around their Kings. And even then, it wasn't as such in every country.

Also, a French/Frankish Iberia would definitely not look the same way as OTL Iberia. "Spanish" and "Portuguese" identities would definitely not look the same: they might even be nothing more than "Regional" identities in a Franco-Iberian Personnal Union scenario! In a sense, that would probably mean that they would be absorbed into French culture, but even then the ATL French might not look like there OTL counterpart.

- How much would be Spanish and Portuguese languages effected?

It's quite possible the Spanish, Portuguse and French language would be affected: the Spanish and Portuguse would be more Francified while the French might become more Spanish influenced.
An interesting possibility might be that Occitan (a language once largely spoken in Southern France that is now spoken only by a few of those southern people) becomes the main language of that Franco-Iberian Kingdom. After all, Occitan is some sort of hybrid language between French and Spanish.

- Would it prevent America from getting discovered?

It's rather irrevelant to ask that question in my opinion. Even if there is no Spain in the ATL, there might be a country that will play its role. My personnal opinion is that there will always be an ATL Chritopher Colombus seeking a Western Route to reach Asia and will bump into the American Continent. The date might not be the same as OTL, but I'm sure you would end up with America being discovered by Europeans.

- Would it end up provoking a Jihad against Iberia?

I don't know Muslim civilisations enough to answer that question. However, with a Christian power looking to conquer all the the Peninsula, conflicts might be more frequent with the Muslims.

 

[Sang]

I'm not sure Charlemagne could manage that... He had tremendeous difficulty just to create the Marcia Hispanica from what I understood. I thus doubt he could conquest Spanish lands South of River Ebro.

Yes indeed. How would we make it easier?

Hum... I think something went wrong with the date you're talking about... Did you meant 942? Or 1492 maybe?

Sorry, I meant 1492

The POD you propose might be too early to consider the Rise of Nationalism. The word itself didn't existed before the XIXth Century I believe and the movement itself started rather late in European History: the first stage probably started around the 1500s, when Monarchies were becoming centralized around their Kings. And even then, it wasn't as such in every country.

Also, a French/Frankish Iberia would definitely not look the same way as OTL Iberia. "Spanish" and "Portuguese" identities would definitely not look the same: they might even be nothing more than "Regional" identities in a Franco-Iberian Personnal Union scenario! In a sense, that would probably mean that they would be absorbed into French culture, but even then the ATL French might not look like there OTL counterpart.

So... we would have a Greater France today?

It's rather irrevelant to ask that question in my opinion. Even if there is no Spain in the ATL, there might be a country that will play its role. My personnal opinion is that there will always be an ATL Chritopher Colombus seeking a Western Route to reach Asia and will bump into the American Continent. The date might not be the same as OTL, but I'm sure you would end up with America being discovered by Europeans.

Good. Good one.

I don't know Muslim civilisations enough to answer that question. However, with a Christian power looking to conquer all the the Peninsula, conflicts might be more frequent with the Muslims.

Yes indeed.

 

[Sang]

Either way, if Charlemagne conquers Spain and Portugal, and manages to keep it part of France, Franciberia (United France-Spain-Portugal) will have a lot of manpower to colonize the Americas.
Thus, maybe they can beat the English in the colonization of India.
Just imagine... all the French colonies, Spanish colonies and Portuguese colonies in America, Africa and Asia, belonging to one Empire!

 

[Niko Malaka]

Sorry, but this scenario is ASB