WI British radios had worked at Arnhem?

Blair152

Banned
A doc on the History Channel a few years back, explored the bad communications between the British soldiers, (including the British 1st Airborne Division), and their superiors. It said that the British had inferior
radios. They tended to fade out quite frequently. So, WI British radios had
worked at Arnhem?
 
British airborne division acts with some better coordination, but I doubt it does change that much, except general Urquhart doesn't have to play courier himself, so he is not trapped in some Dutch attic for a day or two. Anyway, the British might get not 1 but 2 batalions to the bridge, but they are still screwed.
OTOH now Monty knows his paras have to deal with SS Panzer Division, even if seriously weakened. That is not good. With supply drops better coordinated most of them should get to the British, not to the Germans. That might save Britsh division from complete destruction. Perhaps Monty also drops Polish brigade ASAP, after transporting them to airfields not covered by fog (as Sosabowski demanded). So, with some luck, the Allies have well entrenched, still combat capable 1st Airborne Divission on the other side of the Rhine. With a lot of luck they might even have the bridge.
SO WHAT?
Gerrmans have enough forces to completely seal that bridgehead, and Allies spearhead (XXXth Corps) is still hanging on a single supply road and is simply unable to push farther. If necessary, Germans can still destroy the bridge (air attack, concentrated artillery barrage) but even if they can not, it is still very thin supply line - IMHO not enough for advancing large mechanized force.
There is also a matter of close air support. XXXth Corps had no problems with their radios, but AFAIK the air support they got was relatively weak. So I think it remains unchanged
 
The Royal Signal Corps failed to co-ordinate frequencies so radios had the wrong crystals fitted. FAC radios suffered the same fate. Incorrect radios for range abilities and sunspot activity also played their part. German radios worked just fine. Lack of trust and failure to rely on Dutch assistance meant that nobody bothered to just pick up the telephone and dial information.

In the end, Frost and 2 Para were doomed because Horrocks XXX Corps had to stop for tea, anyway.
 
Maybe the whole thing would have worked better if the britts used the resistance a bit better?

Anyway, the operation was doomed from the start with Monty handling it
 

Larrikin

Banned
Maybe the whole thing would have worked better if the britts used the resistance a bit better?

Anyway, the operation was doomed from the start with Monty handling it

The whole thing would have worked if the 82nd had done their job and taken the Nijmegen bridges instead of waiting for the Guards Armoured to come up and help them. Everybody else got their bridges on the first day, except the 82nd, who took until day 4.

As for the Monty comment, what a load of crap, show me an American general of his level who out performed him.
 

Al-Buraq

Banned
Lack of trust and failure to rely on Dutch assistance meant that nobody bothered to just pick up the telephone and dial information.

Maybe the whole thing would have worked better if the britts used the resistance a bit better?

The Dutch resistance had been badly penetrated and compromised during the "England Spiel" and by 1944 there were four different resistance groups operating in the Arnhem and Eindhoven area, together with SOE, OSS and combined Allied JEDBURGH teams. Not all of the groups, nor everyone in them could be 100% trusted either by the Dutch or by the Allies. Co-ordination with the Dutch Government in exile command was sketchy because even their Intelligence liasion officer was suspect. Additionally the conventional wisdom at the time in all European operations was not to involve resistence movements too much in fighting as they got in the way. Nevertheless the Arnhem resistance was prepared. The very day before the planned assault MI6 learned that "King Kong" Lindemanns a senior Dutch resistance leader (who actually reported to MI-9) had defected to the Germans. As it happened, although he knew that an airborne assault was coming, he didn't know exactly where or when and thus gave the Germans crap information. Thus British units were given strict instructions not to rely on the Resistance.
What, dear Armchair Generals, what would you tell your troops in such a situation?
As it was, the troops did indeed, eventually, co-operate with the resistance members in a substantial fashion and some of the most important runners and couriers for the British were Dutch Boy Scouts.

Strange as it may seem to some people, in Holland in 1944, one did not pick up a phone and dial anyone. One picked up a phone and waited for an operator to answer. The telephone system was controlled by the Germans in all occupied countries and at Arnhem was shut down by them as soon as the action started. However, the local Dutch resistence cell actually operated a secret, closed, telephone system that belonged to the Dutch power company and during the fighting Dutch post office workers managed to get the Arnhem system operating in an ad hoc fashion. While Urquart eventually made use of the system from a line especially run to his CP and the resistance CPs, this was 1944--there were not phones in every house and on every corner and besides, as anyone who has been in the military knows, telephones are insecure--even battlefield field phones can be and would be tapped into.




In the end, Frost and 2 Para were doomed because Horrocks XXX Corps had to stop for tea, anyway.

This is just a silly thing to say--and I am being extremely polite.




Answer to original question.
Market Garden was, like all monumental cock-ups, a series of minor cock-ups that individually would not have been crucial. But just so many things went wrong that if any individual cock-up had gone right the end result would not have made much difference. Working radios may have kept headquarters informed of the problems earlier, but it is doubtful that much could have been done.
The problem with Market Garden is that it follows the rule that Victory has a thousand fathers but defeat is a bastard child. No one plays up the equally crass cock ups in battles that ended in victory, like Overlord, The Battle of the Bulge etc. and etc.
 

Al-Buraq

Banned
As for the Monty comment, what a load of crap, show me an American general of his level who out performed him.

I thought that that comment was so purile, it didn't deserve a response. Monty-bashing (or British-in-WW2-bashing) is a sport often undertaken by those who don't really know their history and, frankly, it doesn't help to point out the cock-ups and failures of American forces in WW2--there's not enough bandwidth in the world for that anyway.
 

Larrikin

Banned
I thought that that comment was so purile, it didn't deserve a response. Monty-bashing (or British-in-WW2-bashing) is a sport often undertaken by those who don't really know their history and, frankly, it doesn't help to point out the cock-ups and failures of American forces in WW2--there's not enough bandwidth in the world for that anyway.

Yep, the only US Army Commanders who didn't egregiously cock it up were Simpson, Devers, and Eichelberger. It's a pity that Eisenhower didn't sack his Army Commanders as fast as they sacked various division and corps commanders. Then blokes like Joe Collins and Terry Allen may have ended up commanding Armies as they should have.
 
Yep, the only US Army Commanders who didn't egregiously cock it up were Simpson, Devers, and Eichelberger. It's a pity that Eisenhower didn't sack his Army Commanders as fast as they sacked various division and corps commanders. Then blokes like Joe Collins and Terry Allen may have ended up commanding Armies as they should have.

Robin Neillands has a good critique of the problems from the Normandy breakout to finally crossing the Rhine.

It'll probably send the "Patton was a God" members foaming at the mouth, but it isn't just pro-Monty propaganda. He doesn't escape entirely.
 
The whole thing would have worked if the 82nd had done their job and taken the Nijmegen bridges instead of waiting for the Guards Armoured to come up and help them. Everybody else got their bridges on the first day, except the 82nd, who took until day 4.

As for the Monty comment, what a load of crap, show me an American general of his level who out performed him.

I thought that that comment was so purile, it didn't deserve a response. Monty-bashing (or British-in-WW2-bashing) is a sport often undertaken by those who don't really know their history and, frankly, it doesn't help to point out the cock-ups and failures of American forces in WW2--there's not enough bandwidth in the world for that anyway.

You people aware that the commenter (who I do not agree with) was from SWEDEN? I'm pretty sure he doesn't care how good the USAmerican generals are...
 
You people aware that the commenter (who I do not agree with) was from SWEDEN? I'm pretty sure he doesn't care how good the USAmerican generals are...

The Horrocks / XXX corps comment is still daft. Not that I'm suggesting that you support it.
 
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The Dutch resistance had been badly penetrated and compromised during the "England Spiel" and by 1944 there were four different resistance groups operating in the Arnhem and Eindhoven area, together with SOE, OSS and combined Allied JEDBURGH teams. Not all of the groups, nor everyone in them could be 100% trusted either by the Dutch or by the Allies. Co-ordination with the Dutch Government in exile command was sketchy because even their Intelligence liasion officer was suspect. Additionally the conventional wisdom at the time in all European operations was not to involve resistence movements too much in fighting as they got in the way. Nevertheless the Arnhem resistance was prepared. The very day before the planned assault MI6 learned that "King Kong" Lindemanns a senior Dutch resistance leader (who actually reported to MI-9) had defected to the Germans. As it happened, although he knew that an airborne assault was coming, he didn't know exactly where or when and thus gave the Germans crap information. Thus British units were given strict instructions not to rely on the Resistance.
What, dear Armchair Generals, what would you tell your troops in such a situation?
As it was, the troops did indeed, eventually, co-operate with the resistance members in a substantial fashion and some of the most important runners and couriers for the British were Dutch Boy Scouts.

.

Ofcourse alot of why the Englandspiel was so damned effective had as much to do with the Dutch Resistance fucking up as with the British Intelligence Services fucking up. A Flemish resistance fighter had found out that Lindemans was a double-agent a couple of months before Operation Market Garden. The Englandspeil as a whole only came to fruit because SOE failed to spot the pre-determined emergency code as used by a captured secret agent. He even send the word CAUGHT to the SOE but nothing was done. Except that they send even more agents to be captured ofcourse.

Then there are the persisten rumors that the whole Englandspiel was set up by SOE to make the Germans think that Overlord would be launched in the Netherlands instead of Normandy.
 
In the end, Frost and 2 Para were doomed because Horrocks XXX Corps had to stop for tea, anyway.

The 36 hour delay after the Guards Armoured Division reached Nijmeigan caused by the 82nd not capturing the bridge on the first day had nothing to do with it I suppose?
 

Larrikin

Banned
Robin Neillands has a good critique of the problems from the Normandy breakout to finally crossing the Rhine.

It'll probably send the "Patton was a God" members foaming at the mouth, but it isn't just pro-Monty propaganda. He doesn't escape entirely.

So does Bill Buckingham in his book on Arnhem, were he lays out where the plan was screwed from the start by the First Airborne Army.

It has always amazed me that Lew Brereton ended up commanding 1AA after his monumental cock up in the Phillipines.
 

Larrikin

Banned
You people aware that the commenter (who I do not agree with) was from SWEDEN? I'm pretty sure he doesn't care how good the USAmerican generals are...

There are good and justifiable reasons for bagging Montgomery, Market/Garden isn't one of them.

But equally, if you want to bag Montgomery, start at the top with Eisenhower and work down.
 
Even if the radio's work or the 1st airborne is better coordinated... it doesn't change the fact that XXX corps has to advance down a single two lane highway (that isn't wide enough for medium tanks to turn around) with trees on both sides that screen German anti tank battle groups from air observation and strikes, nor that this highway periodically opens up into congested urban areas, where German anti tank battle groups can take cover in buildings and down alleys and slow the advance
 
There are good and justifiable reasons for bagging Montgomery, Market/Garden isn't one of them.

But equally, if you want to bag Montgomery, start at the top with Eisenhower and work down.

That's one of the good things about the Neillands book. It details the problems in personalities, command and strategy quite well. I felt it might be a bit pro-Monty, but it was a chance find in the local library.
 

Larrikin

Banned
Even if the radio's work or the 1st airborne is better coordinated... it doesn't change the fact that XXX corps has to advance down a single two lane highway (that isn't wide enough for medium tanks to turn around) with trees on both sides that screen German anti tank battle groups from air observation and strikes, nor that this highway periodically opens up into congested urban areas, where German anti tank battle groups can take cover in buildings and down alleys and slow the advance

Doesn't matter, 1st Airborne were asked to hold at Arnhem for 2 days, they held for 4, and Guards Armoured got to Nijmegen at 0820hrs on D plus 2. At that time, every other bridge was in Allied hands, except a couple the Germans had dropped. It took them another two days to take the Nijmegen bridges, which doomed 1st Div, and enable the Germans to get enough stuff into the 8 mile gap between Nijmegen and Arnhem to slow the advance down.

If Guards Armoured had been able to motor through Nijmegen on the morning of the 19th they would have been at the south end of the Arhhem bridge some time that afternoon evening. Instead they spent 2 days scattered all over the south bank of the Waal doing the job that they 82nd should have done on the 17th.

Even allowing for Brereton and Browning screwing up the deployments and Browning taking most of a battalion worth of lift off 1st Airborne, Gavin right royally screwed the pooch at Nijmegen, and that's what ended up destroying 1st Airborne and caused the failure of the attack.
 

Al-Buraq

Banned
Ofcourse alot of why the Englandspiel was so damned effective had as much to do with the Dutch Resistance fucking up as with the British Intelligence Services fucking up. A Flemish resistance fighter had found out that Lindemans was a double-agent a couple of months before Operation Market Garden. The Englandspeil as a whole only came to fruit because SOE failed to spot the pre-determined emergency code as used by a captured secret agent. He even send the word CAUGHT to the SOE but nothing was done. Except that they send even more agents to be captured ofcourse.

Then there are the persisten rumors that the whole Englandspiel was set up by SOE to make the Germans think that Overlord would be launched in the Netherlands instead of Normandy.

Quite right. It was hardly the fault of the Dutch that SOE cocked up so badly or that the German counter-intelligence had such a good run. Some of which was the fault of the internal SOE-MI6 war. Being Dutch, you will also appreciate that the Gestapo had also managed to compromise and blacken many reliable/loyal operatives and promote their own stooges and the existence of so many NSB members, secret and open and even NSB members who were loyal to the Crown made security a nightmare.
I would though remind you that the "Englandspiel" was long over by 1944 after two captured Dutch agents escaped from a concentration camp and got back to England in August 1943. The Germans conceded that on April Fool's day 1944-by sending the message "
[FONT=Palatino,Times,Times New Roman]"Messrs, Blunt, Bingham and Successors, Ltd. London. In the last time you are trying to make business in the Netherlands without our assistance. We think this rather unfair in view of our long and successful co-operation as your sole agents. But never mind, when you come to pay a visit to the Continent you may be assured that you will be received with the same care and result as all those you sent before. So long!"[/FONT]
 
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