WI: Anne of Cleves had a girl for Henry

[Yorkie]

I'm a newb to all this history evaluation but I've decided to give it a go. Recently, I don't know why, but I've become interested in Anne of Cleves. I've been thinking about what if Henry and Anne had consummated their marriage in January 1540, and the product of this was a girl. I assume the baby would've been named after one of Anne's family - maybe called Lady Amalia Tudor. Henry would have recognized the child and probably still have divorced Anne. Anne would be given Chelsea Manor or Hever Castle and Amalia receiving the same education as a girl of royalty.

She is raised into Protestantism. Henry dies when Amalia is seven years old and she is raised by Anne. Amalia could become a threat to Mary during her reign, but as Anne converts to Catholicism during Mary's reign, it's certain that Amalia would do too. Anne dies as OTL in 1557 and Amalia becomes "maid of honour" to Queen Mary before she dies. Now if Amalia decides to stick to Catholicism, then she becomes a serious threat to Elizabeth. She now becomes "Mary Stuart". Many rebellions and assassination attempts all on Amalia's name. This becomes interesting because would Elizabeth seriously execute her sister or just marry her off to Sweden or Spain?

 

[Avrorrange]

What excuse would Henry use this time to annul the marriage?OTL it was on account of non-consummation.

 

[Yorkie]

What excuse would Henry use this time to annul the marriage?OTL it was on account of non-consummation.

After all, Anne had been contracted to marry someone else (Duke of Lorraine). It was a good enough reason at that time to make Henry VIII’s marriage to her invalid.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I'm a newb to all this history evaluation but I've decided to give it a go. Recently, I don't know why, but I've become interested in Anne of Cleves. I've been thinking about what if Henry and Anne had consummated their marriage in January 1540, and the product of this was a girl. I assume the baby would've been named after one of Anne's family - maybe called Lady Amalia Tudor. Henry would have recognized the child and probably still have divorced Anne. Anne would be given Chelsea Manor or Hever Castle and Amalia receiving the same education as a girl of royalty.

She is raised into Protestantism. Henry dies when Amalia is seven years old and she is raised by Anne. Amalia could become a threat to Mary during her reign, but as Anne converts to Catholicism during Mary's reign, it's certain that Amalia would do too. Anne dies as OTL in 1557 and Amalia becomes "maid of honour" to Queen Mary before she dies. Now if Amalia decides to stick to Catholicism, then she becomes a serious threat to Elizabeth. She now becomes "Mary Stuart". Many rebellions and assassination attempts all on Amalia's name. This becomes interesting because would Elizabeth seriously execute her sister or just marry her off to Sweden or Spain?

(Belated) Welcome to the board.

The question of where Amalia (I personally think Margaret is more likely, but okay) fits in the succession depends entirely on her relationship with Henry. For one, I seriously doubt that Henry is going to divorce Anna if she gives him a girl. It's not a boy, true, but nobody had a greater capacity for self-delusion than our Henry (Katherine of Aragon wasn't a virgin, Anne Boleyn was a witch/whore. Kitty Howard was a rose without thornand then a slut etc etc). So, he could be of the opinion that this proves he can still have kids. He'll be disappointed by the gender - it's one girl too many - but he's probably going to live in hope (at least for a while) that Anna is gonna give him a boy. It's when no other children follow that the relationship will turn sour.

That said, if Henry annuls the marriage to Anna then that bastardizes the children (unlike a divorce, an annulment is just what it says, a nullification, which means the marriage never took place, so how can a child be legitimate? It's a lot more complicated and there are ways around it (I think) but that's the long and the short of it). If Henry doesn't then Amalia is still legitimate and takes her place directly behind Edward VI and ahead of Henry's bastard daughters, Mary and Elizabeth, in the succession. If Henry annuls the marriage, then Amalia takes her place behind Mary and Elizabeth.

 

[colleoni]

(Belated) Welcome to the board.

The question of where Amalia (I personally think Margaret is more likely, but okay) fits in the succession depends entirely on her relationship with Henry. For one, I seriously doubt that Henry is going to divorce Anna if she gives him a girl.[...]

That said, if Henry annuls the marriage to Anna then that bastardizes the children (unlike a divorce, an annulment is just what it says, a nullification, which means the marriage never took place, so how can a child be legitimate? It's a lot more complicated and there are ways around it (I think) but that's the long and the short of it). If Henry doesn't then Amalia is still legitimate and takes her place directly behind Edward VI and ahead of Henry's bastard daughters, Mary and Elizabeth, in the succession. If Henry annuls the marriage, then Amalia takes her place behind Mary and Elizabeth.

I agree with your first statement, but not with the second: when a marriage is annulled, wasn't there the possibility to declare the children of said marriage to be born "of good faith" - and thus officially legitimate? I remember reading much about this re: Mary, as well as how the reason she wasn't kept legitimate was due to the resentment for Catherine not conceding the divorce and retiring somewhere away from Henry's eyes.
(and I wonder if, had her status as legitimate been offered to Catherine, it might have spurred her to bend. Unlikely, I know, but not impossible)

 

[Yorkie]

(Belated) Welcome to the board.

The question of where Amalia (I personally think Margaret is more likely, but okay) fits in the succession depends entirely on her relationship with Henry. For one, I seriously doubt that Henry is going to divorce Anna if she gives him a girl. It's not a boy, true, but nobody had a greater capacity for self-delusion than our Henry (Katherine of Aragon wasn't a virgin, Anne Boleyn was a witch/whore. Kitty Howard was a rose without thornand then a slut etc etc). So, he could be of the opinion that this proves he can still have kids. He'll be disappointed by the gender - it's one girl too many - but he's probably going to live in hope (at least for a while) that Anna is gonna give him a boy. It's when no other children follow that the relationship will turn sour.

That said, if Henry annuls the marriage to Anna then that bastardizes the children (unlike a divorce, an annulment is just what it says, a nullification, which means the marriage never took place, so how can a child be legitimate? It's a lot more complicated and there are ways around it (I think) but that's the long and the short of it). If Henry doesn't then Amalia is still legitimate and takes her place directly behind Edward VI and ahead of Henry's bastard daughters, Mary and Elizabeth, in the succession. If Henry annuls the marriage, then Amalia takes her place behind Mary and Elizabeth.

Yes, Amalia technically in the Anglican/Protestant view is a bastard, however, in the catholic eye she is still legitimate. Henry's rightful queen (Catherine) died in 1536 so Amalia is seen as "legitimate". This is why I think it'll be interesting because the superpowers, Spain, France and Holy Roman Empire would be in support of Amalia because they would believe that despite Henry and Anne's annulment, she is still technically legitimate in their religious eye ie Mary. This is why Amalia would be "Mary Stuart" as many catholic rebellions and uprisings to support Amalia as queen, especially when like Mary, she has the three big giants potentially supporting her. (I don't want to sound stupid, but this is what I think. Feel free to correct me if I'm just talking rubbish.)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Yes, Amalia technically in the Anglican/Protestant view is a bastard,

Only if Henry annuls the marriage. And "proof of life" means he might delay that move. Or put it off entirely. Otherwise, Amalia's as legit as Edward to EVERYBODY. Not one half swearing she is and one she isn't (like Mary or Liz).

Henry's rightful queen (Catherine) died in 1536 so Amalia is seen as "legitimate".

Poor Jane Seymour. She'd be so saddened to hear she (and by extension, Edward) aren't regarded as any more legal than Anne Boleyn. But I generally don't give a fig for the Seymours and their family drama (Jane's sister-in-law sleeping with her father; her brother molesting Elizabeth; her nephew and Katherine Grey's clandestine marriage; etc etc), however I get your meaning that there aren't any not-dead wives running around who could cast aspersions on Amalia's legitimacy.

 

[Clandango]

We have to keep in mind that Henry was horribly obese and had two legs leaking pus. He was also something of a romantic (check out King Henry VIII Mind of a Tyrant in Youtube. At least three hour and a half long episodes going over his entire life, derailing personal relationships, letters, etc, and taught me a fair bit in his first marriage and gave plenty of reasons for him to be upset with the Habsburgs) and he approached Anne and gave her a kiss when she camel into the country. He was in disguise, believing in the old romantic thing of a person recognizing their lover right away. She pushed him away and it soured him on the whole thing. I do wonder how Thomas Cromwell will fair in this. Might just be he lives a little longer, though he is likely to get the ax at some point, if only because Henry did it to so many others. Not for the Duke of znorfolk though, despite him both using the fourth marriage as an excuse to push for Cromwell's removal and knowingly lied to Henry VIII about his niece Catherine Howard being a virgin. Actually, looks like he also fell from power, but he just got imprionsed until after Henry died.

 

[FalconHonour]

We have to keep in mind that Henry was horribly obese and had two legs leaking pus. He was also something of a romantic (check out King Henry VIII Mind of a Tyrant in Youtube. At least three hour and a half long episodes going over his entire life, derailing personal relationships, letters, etc, and taught me a fair bit in his first marriage and gave plenty of reasons for him to be upset with the Habsburgs) and he approached Anne and gave her a kiss when she camel into the country. He was in disguise, believing in the old romantic thing of a person recognizing their lover right away. She pushed him away and it soured him on the whole thing. I do wonder how Thomas Cromwell will fair in this. Might just be he lives a little longer, though he is likely to get the ax at some point, if only because Henry did it to so many others. Not for the Duke of znorfolk though, despite him both using the fourth marriage as an excuse to push for Cromwell's removal and knowingly lied to Henry VIII about his niece Catherine Howard being a virgin. Actually, looks like he also fell from power, but he just got imprionsed until after Henry died.

Only because Henry died. His son had been executed and Norfolk was due to be next on the block, except Henry died first and the Council didn't think it a good idea to start the new King's reign by executing England's premier nobleman...

 

[kasumigenx]

If Anne of Cleves had Children that means Mary marries Philip of Bavaria..

 

[isabella]

If Anne of Cleves had Children that means Mary marries Philip of Bavaria..

Pretty likely and knowing Henry she will marry him with a good dowry but without any succession’s rights