WI: Alternate Habsburg-style Central/East European Empires?

[CastIron]

So, as we all know, Central and Eastern Europe (e.g Hungary, the areas along the Danube, Poland, Belarus, and Western Ukraine) in the early modern period was eventually dominated by either the Ottomans, the Russians, or the subject of this thread, the Habsburgs.

But it didn't have to turn out this way.

So, say the Habsburg line stays in their orginal Swiss domains or somehow go extinct before spreading and gaining power, who could we expect to take their place?

I personally am partial to a Jagellionian empire, though getting it to be as expansive or greater than the Habsburg empire would require (imo) either a successful crusade of Varna or at least Władysław III not dying in the Battle of Varna. That would set up a Poland-Hungary-Croatia but after that I don't know where a state like that could expand into.

So, what are your possible Alt-Habsburgs?

 

[Nivek]

Hungary? A More sucessful Matthias corvinus with legitimate heirs could be the one

 

[piratedude]

That would set up a Poland-Hungary-Croatia but after that I don't know where a state like that could expand into

Well they only have so many options for expansion.

1. The Ottoman controlled Balkans to the south
2. The HRE to the west, as controling moravia & bohemia would provide a more secure border
3. Ruthenia and other assorted east slavic principalities to the east
4. Sweden/Denmark to the north if they want to fight over baltic trade

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

There are two possible dynasties that come to mind: the Hohenstaufen dynasty and the Capetian House of Anjou. The House of Anjou took over Hohenstaufen Sicily in the War of Sicilian Vespers. The conquered it from the hands of Manfred von Hohenstaufen who was the illegitimate son of Emperor Frederick II of the HRE also known as Stupor Mundi (the wonder of the world). The death of Frederick II had spelled dynastic collapse for the Hohenstaufens. Manfred refused to give the Kingdom of Sicily to Conradin which was used as pretext by the Papacy to excommunicate Manfred and to remove the Hohenstaufen Kingdom on his doorstep. Manfred began rapidly making moves against the pope, and at one point the Pope was driven out of Rome with Manfred about to displace him. Manfred was dangerously close to liquidating the papacy and to install his own puppet. He after all claimed the entirety of the Duchy of Swabia, the Imperial title, and got loyalty of important cities like Tuscany. The pope then granted leave for Charles d'Anjou to invade Sicily which he finally did. Naples here was a very powerful and wealthy Kingdom within Western Europe and despite it being feudal, was arguably the most well organized and administered realm in all of Christendom at the time save for the Eastern Roman Empire which was floundering under the Angleoi who were driving it into the ground. The Sicilian Revolt saw the Angevins kicked out of Sicily proper establishing what we know as the Kingdom of Naples. The Angevins at one point claimed the throne of Hungary with Charles I and Louis I "the Great of Hungary.

Maximum territorial extent of Louis d'Anjou's dominion.​

Louis the Great of Hungary was a proto-Absolutist monarch not seen in Europe since Frederick II with his Constitutions of Melfii. He ruled quite well without the a Diet being called and strengthened his own power over the nobles while also co-opting them into his base of supporters with a carrot and stick approach. Though all of this was only possible thanks to his father Charles I of Hungary laying the groundwork for this with his skilled adminstration. Louis at one point managed to get the throne of Poland while also exerting his hegemony in the Balkans thanks to the duchy of Bosnia and Serbia being his vassals and the Carpathians with his suzerainty over Wallachia and Molodovia. He also at one point claimed the throne of Naples. If Louis is able to maintain this union then we basically have a Habsburg style composite state within central/Eastern Europe. Though I feel like a more realistic scenario to maintain the hegemony of the House of Anjou would be to divide up the constituent Kingdoms among various sons due to the vast difficulty of administering such vast territories in the 1300's.

Another scenario I'm thinking of is with the House of Hohentaufen surviving. They were kinda like proto-Habsburgs with Emperor Frederick II attempting to claim the duchy of Austria after the Bambergs died out. If you have Philip of Swabia survive you would have the continued ascendance of the House of Hohenstaufen. Philip was about to end the Welf Rebellion before he was assassinated out of the blue by insane Otto IV von Wittlesbach. If Philip lives he likely would have stayed in Germany to consolidate his power in the interest of his nephew and the Hohenstaufen line. He was elected King of Germany in otl. The Danish in otl had been raiding, and had seized the northern coast of Germany taking control of the Baltic trade. The nobles wanted the Emperor to protect them and to retake the land (this was why the revolted against Otto IV in otl), and if he defeats the Danes then his position is secure enough to take the title of Holy Roman Emperor.

Maximum territorial extent of the dominion of the House of Hohenstaufen under Emperor Frederick II of the HRE​

Frederick II after he took power in otl stayed in Sicily and gave up much of his powers as Emperor which laid the seeds for the fragmentation of the HRE. But if Philip survive, the Pope would be encircled, and would be forced to concede defeat to the Hohenstaufens with a compromise being arranged. Philip was even willing to give the Mathildine lands of the Margriavate of Tuscany (most of Northern and central Italy) to a relative of Innocent III int otl. Though if Philip is more successful he might force the Pope to accept his terms. Philip here was allies with Philippe II of France. Without the battle of Bouvines under Otto IV, Philippe would be free to help his son Louis VIII to claim the throne of England during the Barons War (which he almost did in otl). If Philip is unable to have sons, or his potential son dies early, the throne would pass to Frederick II who would in this timeline be raised as a traditional Hohenstuaufen Emperor, and would likely be the most powerful sovereign in Christendom at time since Frederick Barbarossa or even the Ottonian dynasty under Otto the Great.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Besides Angevins and Jagiellons obvious candidates are also Luxembourgs, who once combined thrones of Bohemia, Hungary and HRE (and also claimed Polish throne).

 

[krieger]

I personally am partial to a Jagellionian empire, though getting it to be as expansive or greater than the Habsburg empire would require (imo) either a successful crusade of Varna or at least Władysław III not dying in the Battle of Varna. That would set up a Poland-Hungary-Croatia but after that I don't know where a state like that could expand into.

I think that for Jagiellonian empire, your best bet would be not Władysław of Varna being more succesful, but his father Jagiełło (Jogaila) having surviving sons with Hedwig d'Anjou, his first wife. Not only it'd secure claim of Jagiełło's descendants to Polish throne, so royal power would be far less crippled than it was IOTL, but it'd add a hereditary claim to Hungary also, which could prove interesting. There would be possibility of gaining Hungarian throne during Jagiełło's lifetime and by doing so, reducing Sigismund of Luxembourg to political non-entity. Having Hungarian troops on his side, Jagiełło could take full advantage from his Grunwald (Tannenberg) victory and at least regain Pomerania and vassalize the rest of TO state, or even annex it completely. Sigismund would have to rely on Jagiełło's troops, if he wanted to regain Bohemian throne from the hands of Hussites, so he'd need to marry his daughter one of young Jagiellons and will Bohemia to his son-in-law. Not to mention, than having Poland and Hungary combined, Jagiełło would vassalize both Moldavia and Wallachia, so it'd at least keep Ottomans south of Danube, and at best it could even stop Ottoman unification after the battle of Ankara - Sulayman Celebi, one of sons of late Bayezid I established his rule in Rumelia (European part of Ottoman possesions) and only help of Mircea I of Wallachia enabled his rival, Mehmed to regain control over European possesions. If Mircea is Jagiełło's vassal, his troops would have to participate in war with Teutonic Order instead of helping Mehmed, so Sulayman could succesfuly carve his own sultanate (land of Macedonia and southern Bulgaria) and pass it to his sons (if he'd have any). Marriage of one of Jagiellon princes with Elizabeth of Luxembourg would most likely open him the way to Imperial election - Albert Habsburg was elected, because he was her husband. So, in the end (late XVIthe century) we'd have "better" version of OTL Austrian Habsburg empire - it'd hold Imperial throne, but it'd also control whole Hungary, Croatia with Dalmatia, Bosnia, Serbia, a bits of northern Bulgaria, Poland with Baltic Sea acces and Lithuania directly annexed to it, Livonia and Prussia proper would be vassalized or made proper parts of the empire, whose eastern border would near Moscow. It could advance further into Balkans or try to subjugate rising Russia or try to establish "Dominium Maris Baltici" (Kalmar union would probably survive ITTL, because Scandinavian elites could feel endangered by mere existence of such behemoth in the neighbourhood or try to advance into Italy by claiming Naples - Hedwig originated from the oldest Anjou line, and by the law of strict primogeniture her descendants should inherit Naples once Joanna II dies. Some Jagiellon emperor might think ITTL that Naples belongs to him and start fighting to get it.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Anjou Hungarian-Polish Commonwealth sounds cool.

 

[krieger]

Anjou Hungarian-Polish Commonwealth sounds cool.

It'd not be Commonwealth, because Anjou survival butterflies noble republicanism.

 

[piratedude]

I think that for Jagiellonian empire, your best bet would be not Władysław of Varna being more succesful, but his father Jagiełło (Jogaila) having surviving sons with Hedwig d'Anjou, his first wife. Not only it'd secure claim of Jagiełło's descendants to Polish throne, so royal power would be far less crippled than it was IOTL, but it'd add a hereditary claim to Hungary also, which could prove interesting. There would be possibility of gaining Hungarian throne during Jagiełło's lifetime and by doing so, reducing Sigismund of Luxembourg to political non-entity. Having Hungarian troops on his side, Jagiełło could take full advantage from his Grunwald (Tannenberg) victory and at least regain Pomerania and vassalize the rest of TO state, or even annex it completely. Sigismund would have to rely on Jagiełło's troops, if he wanted to regain Bohemian throne from the hands of Hussites, so he'd need to marry his daughter one of young Jagiellons and will Bohemia to his son-in-law. Not to mention, than having Poland and Hungary combined, Jagiełło would vassalize both Moldavia and Wallachia, so it'd at least keep Ottomans south of Danube, and at best it could even stop Ottoman unification after the battle of Ankara - Sulayman Celebi, one of sons of late Bayezid I established his rule in Rumelia (European part of Ottoman possesions) and only help of Mircea I of Wallachia enabled his rival, Mehmed to regain control over European possesions. If Mircea is Jagiełło's vassal, his troops would have to participate in war with Teutonic Order instead of helping Mehmed, so Sulayman could succesfuly carve his own sultanate (land of Macedonia and southern Bulgaria) and pass it to his sons (if he'd have any). Marriage of one of Jagiellon princes with Elizabeth of Luxembourg would most likely open him the way to Imperial election - Albert Habsburg was elected, because he was her husband. So, in the end (late XVIthe century) we'd have "better" version of OTL Austrian Habsburg empire - it'd hold Imperial throne, but it'd also control whole Hungary, Croatia with Dalmatia, Bosnia, Serbia, a bits of northern Bulgaria, Poland with Baltic Sea acces and Lithuania directly annexed to it, Livonia and Prussia proper would be vassalized or made proper parts of the empire, whose eastern border would near Moscow. It could advance further into Balkans or try to subjugate rising Russia or try to establish "Dominium Maris Baltici" (Kalmar union would probably survive ITTL, because Scandinavian elites could feel endangered by mere existence of such behemoth in the neighbourhood or try to advance into Italy by claiming Naples - Hedwig originated from the oldest Anjou line, and by the law of strict primogeniture her descendants should inherit Naples once Joanna II dies. Some Jagiellon emperor might think ITTL that Naples belongs to him and start fighting to get it.

That sounds awesome, but I'm unsure whether the other power players would appreciate having such a gigantic and potentially powerful realm. Specifically im thinking of the Pope, though admittedly the rise if this near pan-european empire of the Jagiellons is rising at the tail end of papal power and the beginning of the reformation.

Actually, the reformation might be an incentive for choosing the Jagiellons given that they managed to keep the peace between Catholics, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism in their OTL realm

 

[isabella]

It'd not be Commonwealth, because Anjou survival butterflies noble republicanism.

Exactly... a lot of butterflies here...

 

[krieger]

That sounds awesome, but I'm unsure whether the other power players would appreciate having such a gigantic and potentially powerful realm. Specifically im thinking of the Pope, though admittedly the rise if this near pan-european empire of the Jagiellons is rising at the tail end of papal power and the beginning of the reformation.

Actually, the reformation might be an incentive for choosing the Jagiellons given that they managed to keep the peace between Catholics, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism in their OTL realm

Well, I'm more that certain that they won't. That's why I envision Kalmar union sticking together ITTL longer than IOTL. Russia could also consolidate earlier, given such strong Catholic threat on it's borders. In absence of Ottomans, Persia (in it's Safavid incarnation or not) would take up the mantle of biggest Islamic power, followed by Mamluks (who could survive ITTL as a independent state). Jagiellon holding Imperial crown would put him on collision course with France. Pope wouldn't care or he'd see it as a useful tool for his plans, he allowed Charles V to build empire of comparable strength. I think, that Jagiellons holding HRE would stay Catholic.

Exactly... a lot of butterflies here...

Yes, and butterflying the name "Commonwealth" is one of the post predictable ones.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Agreed on the Anjou Poland-Hungary realm. Jogaila and Jadwiga having a surviving child would be an interesting direction too, and if you somehow parlay that into a Poland-Hungary-Lithuanian realm during the reign of a Charles V analogue...

 

[Ultima Ratio]

It'd not be Commonwealth, because Anjou survival butterflies noble republicanism.

Probably right, but perhaps it's not at all a bad thing. The Polish and Hungarian nobility were some of their respective countries' worst enemies. But the concept is still cool, so what if the Anjous first evolve into proper absolutism and then in the 1800s into a constitutional monarchy that calls itself the Commonwealth?

 

[The_Last_Plantagenet]

I’ve always had a fun idea of the Babenbergs managing to take Hungary and Bohemia, so I guess that could fit in here.

 

[krieger]

Probably right, but perhaps it's not at all a bad thing. The Polish and Hungarian nobility were some of their respective countries' worst enemies. But the concept is still cool, so what if the Anjous first evolve into proper absolutism and then in the 1800s into a constitutional monarchy that calls itself the Commonwealth?

It'd most probably maintain the name kingdom, just as UK.

 

[Byzantion]

So, as we all know, Central and Eastern Europe (e.g Hungary, the areas along the Danube, Poland, Belarus, and Western Ukraine) in the early modern period was eventually dominated by either the Ottomans, the Russians, or the subject of this thread, the Habsburgs.

But it didn't have to turn out this way.

So, say the Habsburg line stays in their orginal Swiss domains or somehow go extinct before spreading and gaining power, who could we expect to take their place?

I personally am partial to a Jagellionian empire, though getting it to be as expansive or greater than the Habsburg empire would require (imo) either a successful crusade of Varna or at least Władysław III not dying in the Battle of Varna. That would set up a Poland-Hungary-Croatia but after that I don't know where a state like that could expand into.

So, what are your possible Alt-Habsburgs?

Maybe a Hussite West Slavic Empire Czech lead ?

 

[Mina-van-Mako]

You could have the Hungarian monarch creates their own sphere, (Bosnia, Vallachia, Moldavia, Serbia) and be the "shield of Europe" against the Ottomans, I could see that happening in the beginning of the 15th century.

 

[CastIron]

Maybe a Hussite West Slavic Empire Czech lead ?

Eh, I think that's a bit too far-fetched. Maybe the Hussites could win their war and establish a Hussite Bohemia that, with luck (because I'm sure the Pope would sanction a war of "reclamation" of Bohemia for Rome and the neighbors of Bohemia would be more than happy to oblige), survive until the Empire fractures in the Reformation, should that not be butterflied away by the success of the Hussites. A whole Hussite empire would have to be carved from Catholic lands and I'm sure if the Hussites try to expand outside Bohemia we'd see a much larger scale religious war like the Albigensian Crusade.

You could have the Hungarian monarch creates their own sphere, (Bosnia, Vallachia, Moldavia, Serbia) and be the "shield of Europe" against the Ottomans, I could see that happening in the beginning of the 15th century.

I could see something like this happening, but it seems like in the 1400s Hungary's crown was passed all around the noble houses of Europe. Maybe Sigismund could utilize his resources to establish the "shield" but I think the realms on the border of Hungary and the Ottomans would pay homage to Sigismund but still exercise a lot of autonomy.

 

[krieger]

Maybe a Hussite West Slavic Empire Czech lead ?

Full success of Hussites requires Polish help, so such an empire would be Polish-led.

You could have the Hungarian monarch creates their own sphere, (Bosnia, Vallachia, Moldavia, Serbia) and be the "shield of Europe" against the Ottomans, I could see that happening in the beginning of the 15th century.

It already happened (and it was even larger than you describe), check out Matthias Corvinus

 

[piratedude]

Another possibility is the Přemyslid dynasty