WI/AHC: The Nassaus Aren't Just a One-Hit Wonder at the Imperial Elections

[Kellan Sullivan]

I've seen (and posed) several threads about the Hohenstaufens, Luxemburgs and early Habsburgs, but I've been wondering (thanks to a comment @Janprimus made in @Jan Olbracht's thread) about the resiliency of the house of Nassau. They sort of lost their "oomph" after Adolf was deposed and never made another try for the purple. Is there something that Adolf could do to ensure that his kids/descendants maybe get another shot during the period between his own death in 1298 and the death of Emperor Sigmund of Luxemburg in 1437.

I ask, because the imperial crown - following Conradin's death - went Habsburg (Rudolf)> Habsburg (Albrecht)> Nassau (Adolf)>Luxemburg (Heinrich VII)>Wittelsbach (Ludwig IV)> Luxemburg (Karl IV)> Wittelsbach (Rupprecht)> Luxemburg (Sigmund)> Habsburg (Albrecht II/Friedrich III).

In a conversation I had with @Zulfurium a suggestion of a Nassau getting an electorate (maybe Brandenburg) came up. Saxony could also be interesting, although it might be a little late in the day when the Saxe-Wittenburg Askaniers die out.

Either way, would it be possible for a son/grandson/great-grandson of Adolf to become king of Germany (Emperor's cool too, but let's start small here)?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Is there a way that Adolf could try to get his son/grandson a decent-sized patch of land (that may made an electorate in the Golden Bull)? IIRC he was attempting to secure lands in Saxony/Thuringia when he was deposed, so could he be successful? Or would that decrease a descendant's chances of becoming emperor?

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

All I can think of is to have Adolf of Nassau not systematically piss off each of his electors.

So I think you need him to take a different approach to securing a power base. Let him buy Thuringia, but give up anything remotely questionable. However, use the money he started raising from feudal dues to partner with the rising cities in the Netherlands - effectively tie himself to their mercantile power, and focus on establishing his dynasty as the power on the Rhine, with the merchants. On one hand he can use his prerogative as King to build defences (read: strongholds) along the Rhine from where he can exercise influence and create more trade hubs. This also helps defend him against France, which a Rhine-base dynasty would be vulnerable to.

Flat out, I'd say that he needs to consider ensuring that his sons are raised both as merchants and warriors, from a young age. No nobles just enjoying their youth. No, each one has to go out, and make his own wealth, land and holdings throughout the Empire (and beyond). Other than the potential to create an incredibly rich dynasty, it also means that the incompetent ones get identified, which would mean that Adolf and his dynasty could focus on ensuring the most capable (and most likely wealthiest) is in charge of the House, but also potentially the Empire. Being the ones able to hire large armies, pay off others debts, and wield Imperial power would radically change them from weak to strong - but in a way that most Feudal Lords would scowl at.

You'd need a PoD that essentially lets him see the value of this. (I mean, his treaty was a massive bargaining scenario) so perhaps that is just a different approach for him to take.

As to benefits for him, his current domain is on the Lahn, pretty low down, so it could really embrace trade on the Rhine wholeheartedly, and the entire Lahn valley. I don't know when the 4 locks that are on the lower Lahn were built, but if those can be addressed, then the Nassau Dynasty can ride of the rise of the Hansa, and the Netherlands. Let the rest of the HRE see them as weak kings, allowing his (hopefully very wealthy) son or grandson to take the throne, with a huge wallet, and the Electors seeing them as wealthy, but powerless, and then apply force. Being wealthy, chances are they can attract mercenary captains to effectively provide them with an army on command.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

So I think you need him to take a different approach to securing a power base. Let him buy Thuringia, but give up anything remotely questionable. However, use the money he started raising from feudal dues to partner with the rising cities in the Netherlands - effectively tie himself to their mercantile power, and focus on establishing his dynasty as the power on the Rhine, with the merchants. On one hand he can use his prerogative as King to build defences (read: strongholds) along the Rhine from where he can exercise influence and create more trade hubs. This also helps defend him against France, which a Rhine-base dynasty would be vulnerable to.

This sounds like a decent ambiion to have. I'd imagine that thosesame defences/strongholds along the Rhine will be a nightmare for any other family sitting on the imperial throne?

Flat out, I'd say that he needs to consider ensuring that his sons are raised both as merchants and warriors, from a young age. No nobles just enjoying their youth. No, each one has to go out, and make his own wealth, land and holdings throughout the Empire (and beyond). Other than the potential to create an incredibly rich dynasty, it also means that the incompetent ones get identified, which would mean that Adolf and his dynasty could focus on ensuring the most capable (and most likely wealthiest) is in charge of the House, but also potentially the Empire. Being the ones able to hire large armies, pay off others debts, and wield Imperial power would radically change them from weak to strong - but in a way that most Feudal Lords would scowl at.

So basically turn the Nassaus into a German Medici-type family? One son in the counting house (Lorenzo) and one in the tiltyard (Giuliano). Or would both be required of one individual?

As to benefits for him, his current domain is on the Lahn, pretty low down, so it could really embrace trade on the Rhine wholeheartedly, and the entire Lahn valley. I don't know when the 4 locks that are on the lower Lahn were built, but if those can be addressed, then the Nassau Dynasty can ride of the rise of the Hansa, and the Netherlands. Let the rest of the HRE see them as weak kings, allowing his (hopefully very wealthy) son or grandson to take the throne, with a huge wallet, and the Electors seeing them as wealthy, but powerless, and then apply force. Being wealthy, chances are they can attract mercenary captains to effectively provide them with an army on command.

Wasn't this why they went with Henri of Luxemburg to start with? His territory in the Empire was so small as to render it unlikely he would be able to make any big changes - and then, oh, what do you know, the king of Bohemia died without a son. Ditto for the margrave of Brandenburg, and suddenly the Luxemburgs were controlling two electorates when the Golden Bull was published. I could see something like that, maybe with a Nassau prince winding up as a sort of tie-breaker elector (a la the king of Bohemia OTL).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Alright, so Adolf's eldest son and "heir" was contracted to the eldest daughter of the king of Bohemia (Vaclav II) in 1292. Only problem was that said eldest daughter (Agnes) was all of three years old (being born in 1289). Unfortunately, Agnes died young (some sources posit within a year of her betrothal).

Here we see two possible options: 1) Agnes LIVES and marries Rupprecht of Nassau, which, if her twin brother (Vaclav III)'s life goes more or less as OTL, the Nassaus COULD end up with the senior most claim to the Bohemian throne. Whether they will be successful in pressing it, is of course another matter.

Or, option 2) Adolf begins casting around for a new daughter-in-law (perhaps someone less important but more of an age with Rupprecht).

Which is more likely @krieger? I can't seem to find what Agnes died of, but I feel both PODs (Agnes surviving or Rupprecht marrying elsewhere (and perhaps getting a decent (foreign) alliance for his dad) could have interesting effects for Adolf's reign.

 

[krieger]

Alright, so Adolf's eldest son and "heir" was contracted to the eldest daughter of the king of Bohemia (Vaclav II) in 1292. Only problem was that said eldest daughter (Agnes) was all of three years old (being born in 1289). Unfortunately, Agnes died young (some sources posit within a year of her betrothal).

Here we see two possible options: 1) Agnes LIVES and marries Rupprecht of Nassau, which, if her twin brother (Vaclav III)'s life goes more or less as OTL, the Nassaus COULD end up with the senior most claim to the Bohemian throne. Whether they will be successful in pressing it, is of course another matter.

Or, option 2) Adolf begins casting around for a new daughter-in-law (perhaps someone less important but more of an age with Rupprecht).

Which is more likely @krieger? I can't seem to find what Agnes died of, but I feel both PODs (Agnes surviving or Rupprecht marrying elsewhere (and perhaps getting a decent (foreign) alliance for his dad) could have interesting effects for Adolf's reign.

I think the first option is more likely. Bohemia has electoral vote and securing it will be important for Adolf. He can wait for bride of his eldest son to grow. But Ruprecht of Nassau died in 1304 IOTL, if we don't change this Rupert has very limited opportunity of producing an heir.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think the first option is more likely. Bohemia has electoral vote and securing it will be important for Adolf. He can wait for bride of his eldest son to grow. But Ruprecht of Nassau died in 1304 IOTL, if we don't change this Rupert has very limited opportunity of producing an heir.

Fair point. Although, this is still 50 years before the Golden Bull, so no electoral vote for Bohemia just yet.

Out of curiosity, the Habsburgs, Nassaus and Luxemburgs all sort of started along the same route - holder of a smaller territory inside the empire, chosen as emperor because of their lack of importance, get elected to the imperial throne, and suddenly start staging land grabs (Bohemia for Nassau and Luxemburg (well, the Habsburgs too, didn't work so well for them, though)) to secure the dynasty. The Habsburgs and the Luxemburgs were, moreorless, successful. Why did Adolf fail - and fail so spectacularly (I mean, he was the only emperor-elect who was deposed by the princes without being excommunicated by the pope or anything like that)? It can't be too far too fast, since the Luxemburgs came out of nowhere, and within Heinrich VII's lifetime, married into and held the Bohemian crown (despite wedding a younger daughter).

 

[krieger]

Fair point. Although, this is still 50 years before the Golden Bull, so no electoral vote for Bohemia just yet.

Out of curiosity, the Habsburgs, Nassaus and Luxemburgs all sort of started along the same route - holder of a smaller territory inside the empire, chosen as emperor because of their lack of importance, get elected to the imperial throne, and suddenly start staging land grabs (Bohemia for Nassau and Luxemburg (well, the Habsburgs too, didn't work so well for them, though)) to secure the dynasty. The Habsburgs and the Luxemburgs were, moreorless, successful. Why did Adolf fail - and fail so spectacularly (I mean, he was the only emperor-elect who was deposed by the princes without being excommunicated by the pope or anything like that)? It can't be too far too fast, since the Luxemburgs came out of nowhere, and within Heinrich VII's lifetime, married into and held the Bohemian crown (despite wedding a younger daughter).

Bohemia had an electoral vote before Golden Bull. Henry of Carinthia, king of Bohemia was among electors who voted for election of Henry VII. I think that Adolf just lost his battle. Rudolf Habsburg would be remebered no different than Adolf of Nassau, if he lost Durnkrut.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Bohemia had an electoral vote before Golden Bull. Henry of Carinthia, king of Bohemia was among electors who voted for election of Henry VII. I think that Adolf just lost his battle. Rudolf Habsburg would be remebered no different than Adolf of Nassau, if he lost Durnkrut.

So if Adolf WINS or even doesn't lose AS BADLY in his final battle, things might look a little more promising?

 

[krieger]

So if Adolf WINS or even doesn't lose AS BADLY in his final battle, things might look a little more promising?

If Adolf wins Gollheim, he acquires Thuringia and Meissen as a hereditary lands (the whole point of battle was about Adolf buying those lands from Albert the Degenerate and Habsburgs fiercely opposing the rise of Nasssaus as hereditary owners of that much land). It could have an interesting consequences in Poland too - Bohemians were on the side of Albert Habsburg, so if Adolf wins and Bohemia is weakened, Vladislaus the Elbow-high, strongest among Polish princes at that time will take advantage of Vaclav's failure, and he is a reasonably good ally for Adolf - Bohemia has a claim to newly acquired (by Nassaus) Meissen, so strong and anti-Bohemian Polish king will be a good news for Adolf. @Jan Olbracht

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Łokietek certainly would benefit from troubles of Wenceslaus (who would not be able to gain Greater Poland and Polish crown) but Łokietek's rule wasn't popular and there was other claimant around-Henry of Głogów.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

If Agnes were to still die in 92/93, would Adolf simply shift the betrothal to Anna (i.e. Rupprecht would take Heinrich of Kärnten's place) or would Adolf be obliged to look elsewhere (perhaps due to the Habsburg antipathy from Václav II's wife). Perhaps a marriage between Rupprecht and Elisabeth-Richeza of Poland instead?

 

[krieger]

If Agnes were to still die in 92/93, would Adolf simply shift the betrothal to Anna (i.e. Rupprecht would take Heinrich of Kärnten's place) or would Adolf be obliged to look elsewhere (perhaps due to the Habsburg antipathy from Václav II's wife). Perhaps a marriage between Rupprecht and Elisabeth-Richeza of Poland instead?

No, because Elizabeth-Richeza was betrothed to Otto of Brandenburg at that time. I think that Vaclav would shift the betrothal to Anna.