WI/AHC: Charles, Comte de Valois Becomes King of France

Charles, comte de Valois was the younger brother to Philippe IV le Bel, and father of the whole house of Valois that ruled France between the death of OTL Charles IV (last of the direct Capetians) and the assassination of Henri III in 1589.

Charles was only 55 when he died in 1325. So he probably wouldn't reign long if he HAD survived (maybe until the end of the decade). So let's help him out a bit. The comte de la Marche (OTL Charles IV) dies earlier (classic horse riding accident), say, before he has a chance to remarry, or even, perhaps before his first marriage is dissolved. Louis X is dead, the comte de Poitiers is king, but with no male heir as yet. Charles de Valois succeeds Philippe le Long in 1322 as Charles IV.

How would his reign (say 1322-1330) look? What would the effects be on French politics? Not sure how true it is, but most representations of OTL Charles IV show him as a sort of bumbling or well-meaning idiot. How would Valois differ from this?
 
Charles de Valois would first off immediately lose Navarre to his grand niece Joan, as he has no claim to the Navarrese crown. This is right in the midst of internal conflict in England, as his niece Isabella is estranged from Edward II. Charles will likely continue to support her just like her brothers did in OTL.

He is going to see eventual political conflict with Edward III, who will likely become king sooner rather than later, and will still probably press his own claim to the French crown at some point in most timelines. So here's one way to avoid that.

If he has sense, he could anticipate this kind of challenge from England. So in a move that can save both sides a lot of trouble from the uncertainty of the next few years, let's say Charles has the wisdom to support Prince Edward in overthrowing his unpopular father. A formal alliance is made between Charles and Isabella that sees the new king Edward III pay homage to Charles for his lands in Gascony and Ponthieu and possibly a marriage alliance of some sort that works to Charles' benefit.
 
So here's one way to avoid that.

If he has sense, he could anticipate this kind of challenge from England. So in a move that can save both sides a lot of trouble from the uncertainty of the next few years, let's say Charles has the wisdom to support Prince Edward in overthrowing his unpopular father. A formal alliance is made between Charles and Isabella that sees the new king Edward III pay homage to Charles for his lands in Gascony and Ponthieu and possibly a marriage alliance of some sort that works to Charles' benefit.

I suspect that Edward III will pay homage to TTL Charles IV but he might refuse to do so to OTL Philippe VI. Perhaps say that the homage was rendered to while Edward III was still underage or that he was "forced" to do it by his mom or whatever (or Edward - if he has a son by this point - might send said boy to pay homage in a similar fashion. Such that a king is not another king's vassal?)

@The Professor @isabella @dr. Evil @VVD0D95
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I suspect that Edward III will pay homage to TTL Charles IV but he might refuse to do so to OTL Philippe VI. Perhaps say that the homage was rendered to while Edward III was still underage or that he was "forced" to do it by his mom or whatever (or Edward - if he has a son by this point - might send said boy to pay homage in a similar fashion. Such that a king is not another king's vassal?)

@The Professor @isabella @dr. Evil @VVD0D95
Seems reasonable to me, a marriage between Edward iii and Isabella of Valois could be arranged no?
 
I suspect that Edward III will pay homage to TTL Charles IV but he might refuse to do so to OTL Philippe VI. Perhaps say that the homage was rendered to while Edward III was still underage or that he was "forced" to do it by his mom or whatever (or Edward - if he has a son by this point - might send said boy to pay homage in a similar fashion. Such that a king is not another king's vassal?)

@The Professor @isabella @dr. Evil @VVD0D95
Seems reasonable to me, a marriage between Edward iii and Isabella of Valois could be arranged no?
Can work. Another French bride instead of Philippa maybe would not be the best for England but can work (and in the end butterflying the very big family of Edward III would not be so bad)
 
Seems reasonable to me, a marriage between Edward iii and Isabella of Valois could be arranged no?

Can work. Another French bride instead of Philippa maybe would not be the best for England but can work (and in the end butterflying the very big family of Edward III would not be so bad)

Wasn't Philippa of Hainaut half Valois anyway? I mean her mom was daughter of the comte de Valois' (TTL Charles IV) first marriage so she'd have ties to France WITHOUT being French. And since Edward's MOM chose her AFAIK, why would Isabelle choose differently here? Sure, maybe her uncle supported her against Edward II, but Philippa (and the Low Countries) was still a useful match.
 
Can work. Another French bride instead of Philippa maybe would not be the best for England but can work (and in the end butterflying the very big family of Edward III would not be so bad)
Actually, Isabella of Valois was said to be one of the sources of Tudor genetic problems aside from Jacquetta of Luxembourg.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Wasn't Philippa of Hainaut half Valois anyway? I mean her mom was daughter of the comte de Valois' (TTL Charles IV) first marriage so she'd have ties to France WITHOUT being French. And since Edward's MOM chose her AFAIK, why would Isabelle choose differently here? Sure, maybe her uncle supported her against Edward II, but Philippa (and the Low Countries) was still a useful match.

I think she chose Philippa mainly because her old man decided to throw his support behind her and Mortimer, and the marriage was a way of sealing that.
 
Actually, Isabella of Valois was said to be one of the sources of Tudor genetic problems aside from Jacquetta of Luxembourg.
You are talking either about Isabelle of France or Catherine of Valois.... The only Isabella of Valois married in England in OTL was Richard II’s child bride
 
You are talking either about Isabelle of France or Catherine of Valois.... The only Isabella of Valois married in England in OTL was Richard II’s child bride
Isabella of Valois is an ancestor of Catherine of Valois and the Tudors in general.
 
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So I found this snippet of info that there were marriage negotiations going on in 1324. wherein a daughter of the comte de Valois was considered and refused in favour of a Spanish match (the bolded part - emphasis mine)

Recently I was looking through the correspondence relating to the 1324/25 War of Saint-Sardos between Edward II and his brother-in-law Charles IV of France, and came across a letter of c. 23 January 1324 written to Edward by Sir Ralph Basset (see Lady D’s excellent post on him), who was the king's steward of Gascony. [1] The letter is long and informative and contains some information about marriage negotiations between England and France which I don't remember ever hearing about before. They concern Edward II and Isabella of France's daughters Eleanor, then aged five (born June 1318) and Joan, then aged two (born July 1321), and also, most interestingly to me, the king's half-brother Edmund of Woodstock, earl of Kent, then twenty-two (born August 1301). I'd never known before that any marriages were discussed for Edmund before he married Margaret Wake in late 1325, though of course it makes complete sense that they would have been. In August 1320 Edward II discussed a possible marriage for his other half-brother Thomas of Brotherton, earl of Norfolk (born June 1300) with King Jaime II of Aragon: Thomas would marry Jaime's daughter Maria, widow of Pedro of Castile, who was the son of Sancho IV and thus Edward II’s first cousin once removed. In August 1321, however, Jaime reported to Edward that Maria had decided to take the veil and that he did not think he would be able to change her mind. [2] Thomas of Brotherton ended up making a remarkably obscure marriage to Alice Hales, daughter of the coroner of Norfolk, probably later in 1321.

The potential marriages for Edward II's daughters mentioned in Ralph Basset's letter were with the offspring of the powerful Charles de Valois, count of Valois, Alençon, Perche, Anjou and Maine. Valois (12 March 1270 - 16 December 1325) was the son of Philip III of France and Isabel of Aragon and the brother of Philip IV, and the uncle of Louis X, Philip V, Charles IV and Edward II's queen Isabella. His children and Edward II's therefore were first cousins once removed. His eldest son Philip, born in 1293, succeeded his cousin Charles IV in 1328 as the first of the Valois kings of France, as Charles and his two elder brothers had no surviving sons and therefore were the last of the Capetian kings. Valois was married three times and had about fourteen children, including Jeanne, mother of Edward III's queen Philippa of Hainault; Isabelle, who married the heir of the duke of Brittany; Catherine, titular empress of Constantinople and princess of Taranto; another Isabelle, duchess of Bourbon; Blanche, Holy Roman Empress and queen of Germany; yet another Isabelle, abbess of Fontevrault. Valois was, in the usual tangled manner of royal relationships, also the uncle of Edward II's half-brothers the earls of Norfolk and Kent, being the elder half-brother of their mother Queen Marguerite.
Basset’s letter states that Valois had asked his nephew Charles IV for permission to send Amaury de Craon to England to meet Edward II, "to discuss and negotiate the marriages of my ladies your two daughters, that is, one for the son of the said Sir Charles who is of the issue of his last wife, and the other for one of the sons of his son from his first marriage" (...pur parler et treter de mariages de mes dames vos deus files ceo est asavoir la une pur le fitz du dit monsire Charles qui est del issue de sa dreine femme et lautre pur un des fitz de son fitz qui est des primeres esposailes).
Valois’s third and last wife was Mahaut or Matilda of St Pol, also known as Mahaut de Châtillon (d. 1358), sister of Marie de St Pol, countess of Pembroke. With her he had only one son, who must be the boy mentioned here: Charles, count of Chartres, born probably in 1318. Valois had two sons with his first wife Marguerite of Naples and Anjou, who died in 1299: the aforementioned Philip, who succeeded as Philip VI of France in 1328, and Charles, count of Alençon, born in 1297, who was killed at the battle of Crécy in 1346. Charles of Alençon had been married to Joan de Joigny since 1314, but the couple had no children (Alençon’s children all came from his 1336 second marriage to Fernando de la Cerda the younger's daughter Maria). Philip of Valois had married Joan ‘the Lame’, Jeanne la Boiteuse*, of Burgundy in 1313; she was the younger sister of Marguerite, first wife of Louis X, who was imprisoned for adultery in 1314. As far as I can tell, the only son of Philip of Valois and Joan of Burgundy alive in 1324 was John, or Jean in French, the future King John II of France, who was born in April 1319 (they had had an older son, Philip, but he died young). It must be John who was being put forward as a husband for one of Edward II's daughters in January 1324. [* Later known in France as la male royne boiteuse, 'the evil lame queen']

Louis of Chartres died on 2 November 1328, probably aged only ten or thereabouts. John of Valois married Bonne (born Jutta) of Bohemia, daughter of John the Blind, king of Bohemia, in 1332 and succeeded his father as King John II in 1350. He is known to history as Jean le Bon, John the Good, and was succeeded by his son Charles V and then his grandson Charles VI, and so on. No-one could have known at the time of Charles de Valois's marriage proposals in January 1324 that Charles IV would die without a son in February 1328, and that if this proposal had been realised it would ultimately have made one of Edward II's daughters queen of France. Given that Edward's son Edward III claimed the French throne from his kinsman Philip VI (who was also the uncle of Edward's queen, Philippa), that's a fascinating what-if.

The marriage of the future Edward III to one of Charles of Valois's daughters had also been proposed, incidentally, in about May 1323; Edward II told Valois and Charles IV on 6 June that he would put the suggestion to his next parliament, which didn't take place until February 1324, by which time the alternative marriage proposal had been suggested. [3] The daughter is not named, but presumably meant one of Valois's daughters with Mahaut of St Pol, who were all about the right age to marry Edward of Windsor: Marie (b. c. 1309), Isabelle (b. 1313) or Blanche (b. 1317). In March 1324, Edward II sent envoys to Jaime II of Aragon to discuss a marriage between Edward of Windsor and Jaime's daughter Violante, and in February 1325 sent envoys to Castile to arrange a marriage for the boy with Alfonso XI's sister Leonor. [4]
Unfortunately, nothing came of these proposed marriages for Edward II's daughters and Charles de Valois's son and grandson, and I'm not sure whether Valois's envoy Amaury de Craon did indeed visit England and Edward to discuss them. I've found a reference to Craon in July 1325 as an envoy of the duke of Brittany and a clerk of his being granted protection in England earlier that same year, but that's it. Amaury had twice served as Edward II's steward of Gascony, Ralph Basset's predecessor, and was always acknowledged as 'cousin' or 'kinsman' by Edward; if I've worked it out correctly, Amaury's grandmother was one of Henry III's Lusignan half-siblings. Over the next year or two Edward II betrothed his daughters instead to Alfonso XI of Castile and the future Pedro IV of Aragon, Jaime II's grandson, and after his deposition they married David II of Scotland and Duke Reynald II of Gueldres.

The impetus for the Valois marriages came from Charles de Valois himself. The next proposed marriage, however, was one which Ralph Basset had been trying to negotiate on Edward II's behalf. The prospective bridegroom was Edward's half-brother Edmund of Woodstock, earl of Kent, and the prospective bride was Régine de Got, daughter and heir of Bertrand de Got, viscount of Lomagne, a small town north-west of Toulouse (Basset wrote: jeo avoi comence parlaunce et trettement od le viscounte de Leomaine pur avoir euz le mariage de sa file et mon seignur vostre frere le counte de Kente, "I had begun discussions and negotiations with the viscount of Lomagne to have had the marriage of his daughter and my lord your brother the earl of Kent").
Bertrand de Got, viscount of Lomagne, was one of the many nephews of the Gascon Pope Clement V, who died on 20 April 1314 and whose real name was also Bertrand de Got. On 16 June 1308, Edward II had granted Bertrand the nephew the castle and town of Blanquefort and appointed him his proctor at the papal court. This was just before Piers Gaveston was forced to leave England for his second exile, and Edward candidly admitted that he hoped the grant to the pope's nephew would encourage Clement to support him in the Gaveston matter and to lift the conditional sentence of excommunication imposed on him by the archbishop of Canterbury. [5] In November 1317, Bertrand de Got, his kinsman Peter de Via, another nephew of Clement V, and other men were accused of "proceeding by witchcraft" against Pope John XXII. A letter in the Gascon Rolls states "However, it is not possible to credit accusations against such important and noble persons...The pope has hitherto acted so affectionately towards them, for it not to be reasonable that they should be suspected of such horrendously criminal behaviour." [6]

Ralph Basset informed Edward in his letter that unfortunately his negotiations with Bertrand had been unsuccessful and he had heard that Régine de Got was shortly to marry the count of Armagnac instead (a ceo qe jeo ay entendu ele serra mariee au counte de Armeniak en moult bref temps). The count of Armagnac in 1324 was Jean I, who was still underage at the time and lived until 1373. Countess Régine sadly did not live long: John Travers, constable of Bordeaux, told Edward II on 1 September 1325 that "the countess of Armagnac, who was the daughter of the viscount of Lomagne, is dead without an heir of her body," and on the 23rd Edward wrote to inform his half-brother the earl of Kent, the spurned bridegroom and the king's lieutenant in Gascony. [7] Betrand de Got, viscount of Lomagne, died in 1324, within months of Basset's letter. Ralph Basset was afraid of an alliance between the viscount of Lomagne, the Armagnacs and Amanieu, lord of Albret against Edward II, which he had been hoping to avert with the marriage of Kent and Régine. Armagnac and Albret supported Charles IV against Edward II in the War of Saint-Sardos, although Albret's son Bérard was a staunch ally of Edward. Malcolm Vale's 1990 book The Origins of the Hundred Years War: The Angevin Legacy 1250-1340 mentions Kent and Régine's proposed marriage (p. 94 footnote 87), but otherwise I don't believe it's ever been discussed, except here.
 
A side-effect of the comte de la Marche predeceasing Philippe V (our primary POD) is the question of Marie of Luxemburg, his OTL second wife. (Obviously his third wife is also affected, but Jeanne d'Evreux only 12yo at the time). FWIG, the marriage negotiations were only brokered once the comte de la Marche became king of France, since, until May 1322 he was technically still married to his first wife, Blanche de Bourgogne.

Now, I don't understand why Charles' marriage to Blanche wasn't annulled earlier (i.e. as soon as the new pope was elected), if Philippe V simply regarded it as "not essential" or what the reasoning was. But...assuming that Charles' first marriage isn't dissolved before he dies in 1321, that might save the life of Marie of Luxemburg.

The question is then, what happens to Marie? OTL she was engaged to Ludwig of the Palatinate (b.1297), but by 1322 he's dead and his brother, Adolf, is married already, although there was no move to attempt to marry her to Adolf between Ludwig's death in 1311 and her marriage to the king of France. There's a mention that she was perhaps intended for a convent, although she doesn't seem to have been a fan of this idea, since she apparently refused.

Any thoughts

@Old1812 @Jan Olbracht @krieger @isabella
 
A side-effect of the comte de la Marche predeceasing Philippe V (our primary POD) is the question of Marie of Luxemburg, his OTL second wife. (Obviously his third wife is also affected, but Jeanne d'Evreux only 12yo at the time). FWIG, the marriage negotiations were only brokered once the comte de la Marche became king of France, since, until May 1322 he was technically still married to his first wife, Blanche de Bourgogne.

Now, I don't understand why Charles' marriage to Blanche wasn't annulled earlier (i.e. as soon as the new pope was elected), if Philippe V simply regarded it as "not essential" or what the reasoning was. But...assuming that Charles' first marriage isn't dissolved before he dies in 1321, that might save the life of Marie of Luxemburg.

The question is then, what happens to Marie? OTL she was engaged to Ludwig of the Palatinate (b.1297), but by 1322 he's dead and his brother, Adolf, is married already, although there was no move to attempt to marry her to Adolf between Ludwig's death in 1311 and her marriage to the king of France. There's a mention that she was perhaps intended for a convent, although she doesn't seem to have been a fan of this idea, since she apparently refused.

Any thoughts

@Old1812 @Jan Olbracht @krieger @isabella
That wedding likely was not annulled because Philip V was King and not Philip IV or Louis X. Unlike his father or older brother, who would have gladly free Charles from that undesirable bride, Philip was still allied to Blanche’s family being married to her elder sister AND had absolutely wanted back his wife (specially once she became heiress of her parents) so he had no reason for freeing his brother from his wedding.
Still I have no idea of who can be a good husband for Marie of Luxembourg here
 
That wedding likely was not annulled because Philip V was King and not Philip IV or Louis X. Unlike his father or older brother, who would have gladly free Charles from that undesirable bride, Philip was still allied to Blanche’s family being married to her elder sister AND had absolutely wanted back his wife (specially once she became heiress of her parents) so he had no reason for freeing his brother from his wedding.

That makes sense. I always wondered if it wasn't simply a case of Philippe having ulterior motives rather than just "never getting round to it" or that Charles (as portrayed in Les Rois Maudits) was head-over-heels for Blanche that he sincerely believed in her innocence.
 
That makes sense. I always wondered if it wasn't simply a case of Philippe having ulterior motives rather than just "never getting round to it" or that Charles (as portrayed in Les Rois Maudits) was head-over-heels for Blanche that he sincerely believed in her innocence.
No, that was Philippe with Jeanne (who still was accused only to have covered Marguerite and Blanche‘s adulteries and not to have betrayed her wedding vows)
 
Like others have suggested, a somewhat more canny French king could anticipate problems from England, and take the necessary steps to avoid giving offense. Then again, conflict over the English posessions in France had been going on long before the HYW started, so perhaps the conflict getting ramped up was "inevitable"?
 
@Jan Olbracht @krieger @Fehérvári

Regarding Marie of Luxemburg, is there any chance she might be offered for either her sister's widower (1319-1320), Pietro II of Sicily (1320-1322) or the duke of Calabria (in 1324).

Non-royal options would be Heinrich of Lower Bavaria (b.1304), betrothed to Margaret of Bohemia in 1322; Friedrich II of Meißen (betrothed to Bonne of Bohemia 1322-1323) (b.1310).

Thoughts?
 
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