WI: A Domesticating Culture

With various threads it's come up that cultures usually domesticate a few animals/plants, then stop even if it later turns out more potential domesticates were around but ignored.

Is there any chance of a culture that takes the idea of domestication and runs with it? Trying to domesticate everything they can?
 
With various threads it's come up that cultures usually domesticate a few animals/plants, then stop even if it later turns out more potential domesticates were around but ignored.

Is there any chance of a culture that takes the idea of domestication and runs with it? Trying to domesticate everything they can?

By why? Once they have an animal and plant for every niche, there's no reason to get more things. Like, a culture that has domesticated goats for milk, meat, and wool has no need for llamas. A culture with ratting dogs doesn't need cats. A culture with linen doesn't need hemp.
 
By why? Once they have an animal and plant for every niche, there's no reason to get more things. Like, a culture that has domesticated goats for milk, meat, and wool has no need for llamas. A culture with ratting dogs doesn't need cats. A culture with linen doesn't need hemp.

Niche needs at times exist - ferrets were used for rabit hunting, by example.
 
By why? Once they have an animal and plant for every niche, there's no reason to get more things
Moving into a new environment is one reason, if you can start cultivating native stuff it might be better than bringing your imports.

Also this culture would need some "Because we can" and "Let's see if we can tame this."
 
Niche needs at times exist - ferrets were used for rabit hunting, by example.


Niche needs are your best bet. A culture which is full of small regional isolations, local extinctions or exhaustions, and a continuing need to find new exploitatations or find new or specialized applications to exploit.
 
By why? Once they have an animal and plant for every niche, there's no reason to get more things. Like, a culture that has domesticated goats for milk, meat, and wool has no need for llamas. A culture with ratting dogs doesn't need cats. A culture with linen doesn't need hemp.

Religion or ingrained sociocultural ideology, for example 'For God has put us on Earth as Supreme, therefore we must make all life submit to us!'.
 
Niche needs are your best bet. A culture which is full of small regional isolations, local extinctions or exhaustions, and a continuing need to find new exploitatations or find new or specialized applications to exploit.

But where? The first place that came to my mind was New Guinea, but as I recall most of their domesticates are imports...
 
IIRC Jared Diamond (Guns Germs and Steel) basically says humans try and domesticate everything they can but the options are limited. Consequently you get alot at one time (end of the ice age). I also think I remember in the series Connectons Egyption Hyroglyphic of a Hyenna being force feed trying to domesticate it and not suceeding. A monestary in dark ages Europe domestcated the rabbit. The way I see it without large scale concerted efforts and gentic engineering the only way to domesticate an animal or plant is either starting with a really good source or a lot of selectve breeding.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
IIRC Jared Diamond (Guns Germs and Steel) basically says humans try and domesticate everything they can but the options are limited. Consequently you get alot at one time (end of the ice age). I also think I remember in the series Connectons Egyption Hyroglyphic of a Hyenna being force feed trying to domesticate it and not suceeding. A monestary in dark ages Europe domestcated the rabbit. The way I see it without large scale concerted efforts and gentic engineering the only way to domesticate an animal or plant is either starting with a really good source or a lot of selectve breeding.

Diamond is mostly wrong on this. In the Americas most potential domesticates were wiped out before a proper attempt could be made, and then they didn't domesticate many potential species.

It's been proven pretty convincingly that most animals, and apparently all placental mammals, are potentially domesticable. It's a matter of diminishing returns - the time spent getting a zebra bred not to bite you in the face is so many generations that only the most determined and sophisticated effort could succeed.

I strongly agree with Iori. Without modern scientific attitudes the only way to get a culture domesticating many more species than OTL would be through some sort of religious motivation.
 
IIRC Jared Diamond (Guns Germs and Steel) basically says humans try and domesticate everything they can but the options are limited. Consequently you get alot at one time (end of the ice age). I also think I remember in the series Connectons Egyption Hyroglyphic of a Hyenna being force feed trying to domesticate it and not suceeding. A monestary in dark ages Europe domestcated the rabbit. The way I see it without large scale concerted efforts and gentic engineering the only way to domesticate an animal or plant is either starting with a really good source or a lot of selectve breeding.

We've all read Jared Diamond. I think Jared's interesting, and he's a generalist who is very good at pulling together a lot of specialized research, oversimplifying it and putting it forward. But I think he's just plain overstating his case.

Domestication events are a lot more complicated, and involve a lot of factors on both sides of the equation.
 
Diamond is mostly wrong on this. In the Americas most potential domesticates were wiped out before a proper attempt could be made, and then they didn't domesticate many potential species.

It's been proven pretty convincingly that most animals, and apparently all placental mammals, are potentially domesticable. It's a matter of diminishing returns - the time spent getting a zebra bred not to bite you in the face is so many generations that only the most determined and sophisticated effort could succeed.

I strongly agree with Iori. Without modern scientific attitudes the only way to get a culture domesticating many more species than OTL would be through some sort of religious motivation.


What do you cite for or claim to disprove Diamond? I find his theories mostly compelling, especially compared to the alternatives. But since their not gospel I'm always interested in getting more info, attempting to get closer to the truth.

We've all read Jared Diamond. I think Jared's interesting, and he's a generalist who is very good at pulling together a lot of specialized research, oversimplifying it and putting it forward. But I think he's just plain overstating his case.

Domestication events are a lot more complicated, and involve a lot of factors on both sides of the equation.

If they are more complicated than Diamond sets forth (in his book(s) not having had his classes) doesn't that argue for less domestications?
 
If they are more complicated than Diamond sets forth (in his book(s) not having had his classes) doesn't that argue for less domestications?

Okay, here's some things that Diamond overlooks or underplays.

First, there's considerable support for the notion that domestication is a mutual process. A species literally self-domesticates through mutualism. ie, humans have something or produce something that a given species requires, wants or benefits from. A natural selection takes place where human habituated and human tolerant animals in a species experience a net advantage - usually more year round or specialized access to food sources.

Dogs, goats, pigs, in different ways, all found human garbage delicious and noted that when humans were around, the feeding was good.

Dogs, cats and weasels also found that where there was humans, there were lots of vermin/prey animals. The feeding was good.

Horses, Water Buffalo, Camel, Cattle were all grazers who found that humans were a species who were devoted to clearing bush, cutting down forests, and making these wonderful endless fields of delicious grazing material.

To get at the goodies, the animals have to habituate to humans. They have to be able to tolerate the presence of humans, they have to be able to monitor and distinguish humans and human behaviour to recognize when there's a threat.


Second, there has to be a viable economic reason for domestication. There's a few wrinkles there.

(i)(a) Any domestication involves time and labour, an economic expense. If you already have a domesticate doing that job, then you don't bother domesticating a second species. Existing domestications block future domestications, it's basic economics. Horses, Cattle, Water Buffalo, Yak, Camels, Reindeer, Llamas were all domesticated in different regions - and of these, only Cattle and Horses share the same niche - Water Buffalo, Yak, Reindeer and Camels all endure as economic domestications because horse and cattle don't work well. Chickens are a very dominant microlivestock, because they're so dominant, other microlivestocks like turkeys, guineau pigs, rabbit and geese are relatively marginalized.

(i)(b) Economics is also sometimes a factor in driving out or neutralizing domesticates or potential domesticates. For instance, cats pretty much pushed out domesticated ferrets, they were a more reliable verminator. There's some evidence for a Moose domestication in northern europe that did not survive economic/political competition with horse and cattle.

(ii) There actually has to be a use. Raccoons are human habituated to an extreme expense, they're tamed regularly for hundreds of years, they breed easily in captivity.... no one has ever figured out an economically useful thing for raccoons to do. Same with bears, seagulls, crows, rats, squirrels.... Pigeons sort of got borderline - there were a few economic uses (food, messengers, specialty pets, etc.)

(iii) The uses have to pass certain economic tests for cost effectiveness. Take elephants, 25 year maturation period, do the labour of a bulldozer, for elephant domestication, you really need some skewed social economics.

(iv) It's not a universal thing. Every society has different needs and requirements. The Caribou and Reindeer are genetically identical. The Sammi domesticated the Reindeer, the Inuit did not. Were the inuit stupid? No. Were the Caribou somehow unique? No. Inuit society was a transient hunter-gatherer society which moved back and forth between land and sea, domesticating Caribou would have a huge economic cost in terms of surrendering a lot of sea access and the benefits and opportunities thereof.

Three, there has to be a viable interface. Most times, animals are simply free protein. Domestication or taming is an iffy prooposition. And free protein is very very tempting. So here's the thing, if you've hunted your local populations to extinction.... no domestication possible. So there needs to be a continuing interface between human populations and wild populations in order for domestication to take place. This usually means that domestications cannot take place in the human central territories. Rather, it takes place on human borderlands. And it usually means that the potential domesticate has a refuge or place where humans find it inaccessible to replenish their population.
 
Okay, here's some things that Diamond overlooks or underplays.

First, there's considerable support for the notion that domestication is a mutual process. A species literally self-domesticates through mutualism. ie, humans have something or produce something that a given species requires, wants or benefits from. A natural selection takes place where human habituated and human tolerant animals in a species experience a net advantage - usually more year round or specialized access to food sources.

Dogs, goats, pigs, in different ways, all found human garbage delicious and noted that when humans were around, the feeding was good.

Dogs, cats and weasels also found that where there was humans, there were lots of vermin/prey animals. The feeding was good.

Horses, Water Buffalo, Camel, Cattle were all grazers who found that humans were a species who were devoted to clearing bush, cutting down forests, and making these wonderful endless fields of delicious grazing material.

To get at the goodies, the animals have to habituate to humans. They have to be able to tolerate the presence of humans, they have to be able to monitor and distinguish humans and human behaviour to recognize when there's a threat.


Second, there has to be a viable economic reason for domestication. There's a few wrinkles there.

(i)(a) Any domestication involves time and labour, an economic expense. If you already have a domesticate doing that job, then you don't bother domesticating a second species. Existing domestications block future domestications, it's basic economics. Horses, Cattle, Water Buffalo, Yak, Camels, Reindeer, Llamas were all domesticated in different regions - and of these, only Cattle and Horses share the same niche - Water Buffalo, Yak, Reindeer and Camels all endure as economic domestications because horse and cattle don't work well. Chickens are a very dominant microlivestock, because they're so dominant, other microlivestocks like turkeys, guineau pigs, rabbit and geese are relatively marginalized.

(i)(b) Economics is also sometimes a factor in driving out or neutralizing domesticates or potential domesticates. For instance, cats pretty much pushed out domesticated ferrets, they were a more reliable verminator. There's some evidence for a Moose domestication in northern europe that did not survive economic/political competition with horse and cattle.

(ii) There actually has to be a use. Raccoons are human habituated to an extreme expense, they're tamed regularly for hundreds of years, they breed easily in captivity.... no one has ever figured out an economically useful thing for raccoons to do. Same with bears, seagulls, crows, rats, squirrels.... Pigeons sort of got borderline - there were a few economic uses (food, messengers, specialty pets, etc.)

(iii) The uses have to pass certain economic tests for cost effectiveness. Take elephants, 25 year maturation period, do the labour of a bulldozer, for elephant domestication, you really need some skewed social economics.

(iv) It's not a universal thing. Every society has different needs and requirements. The Caribou and Reindeer are genetically identical. The Sammi domesticated the Reindeer, the Inuit did not. Were the inuit stupid? No. Were the Caribou somehow unique? No. Inuit society was a transient hunter-gatherer society which moved back and forth between land and sea, domesticating Caribou would have a huge economic cost in terms of surrendering a lot of sea access and the benefits and opportunities thereof.

Three, there has to be a viable interface. Most times, animals are simply free protein. Domestication or taming is an iffy prooposition. And free protein is very very tempting. So here's the thing, if you've hunted your local populations to extinction.... no domestication possible. So there needs to be a continuing interface between human populations and wild populations in order for domestication to take place. This usually means that domestications cannot take place in the human central territories. Rather, it takes place on human borderlands. And it usually means that the potential domesticate has a refuge or place where humans find it inaccessible to replenish their population.

I actually agree with all of that.

Still, I don't see any radical departure from the major domesticates we have.
 
I actually agree with all of that.

Still, I don't see any radical departure from the major domesticates we have.

Caribou, and Musk Ox in North America (there's an argument that Musk Ox may have been a domesticate or semi-domesticate in ice age europe), Deer in central America (there may be some evidence of an abandoned domestication there). Tapirs maybe, if there'd been a south east asian type agriculture. Moose in North America and Europe (and again evidence of an abandoned domestication or semi-domestication) These are all in terms of draft labour.

Hippos no. But under certain circumstances, we might have seen Elephant domestication, and there's at least a plausible case for it in southeast asia.

Exotically, possibly Dugong or Manatee, but there was never a culture in place that had sufficient sophistication to attribute an economic utility.

Monkeys, Lemurs, Raccoons, Crows, bears, furbearers.

In terms of microlivestock, there's this reference, literally dozens:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1831&page=R1

Termites.

And of course, there's Ostrich, Emu and Rhea, all currently recent (19th or 20th century domesticates).

Pretty much any potential marsupial/australian domesticate was missed, for cultural reasons.
 
Caribou, and Musk Ox in North America (there's an argument that Musk Ox may have been a domesticate or semi-domesticate in ice age europe), Deer in central America (there may be some evidence of an abandoned domestication there). Tapirs maybe, if there'd been a south east asian type agriculture. Moose in North America and Europe (and again evidence of an abandoned domestication or semi-domestication) These are all in terms of draft labour.

Hippos no. But under certain circumstances, we might have seen Elephant domestication, and there's at least a plausible case for it in southeast asia.

Exotically, possibly Dugong or Manatee, but there was never a culture in place that had sufficient sophistication to attribute an economic utility.

Monkeys, Lemurs, Raccoons, Crows, bears, furbearers.

In terms of microlivestock, there's this reference, literally dozens:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1831&page=R1

Termites.

And of course, there's Ostrich, Emu and Rhea, all currently recent (19th or 20th century domesticates).

Pretty much any potential marsupial/australian domesticate was missed, for cultural reasons.

Alright I guess we are slectively suspending some of the causes of domestication to see what could have happened.

BTW would you consider we domesticated our selves? Except we called it Gracilization?
 

While I disagree with Diamond on any number of points, the domestication of silver foxes doesn't have any bearing on his argument.

Diamond's view was that all available large domestic animals which could be domesticated, had long since been domesticated. Smaller animals, in his view, were not as automatically attractive as larger ones, and so not all potential small domesticates were in fact domesticated long ago.

While I don't recall offhand the size limit he described for "large" animals, silver foxes would be on the smaller side of it.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
I actually agree with all of that.

Still, I don't see any radical departure from the major domesticates we have.

Well its hard to say exactly when the medium-sized fauna of central America and the Andes died out, but even assuming it was early there are a few odds and ends here and there.

Of possible radical departures there aren't many, admittedly.

I suspect the Harris Hawk could have been domesticated to a level far beyond any OTL falconry, but that's all I have to add to DValdron's suggestions.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
While I disagree with Diamond on any number of points, the domestication of silver foxes doesn't have any bearing on his argument.

Diamond's view was that all available large domestic animals which could be domesticated, had long since been domesticated. Smaller animals, in his view, were not as automatically attractive as larger ones, and so not all potential small domesticates were in fact domesticated long ago.

While I don't recall offhand the size limit he described for "large" animals, silver foxes would be on the smaller side of it.

Well on the one hand, fair enough. I've read a lot of commentary of his work, but only excerpts of the actual book, so I shouldn't presume to argue with an argument I haven't heard. Unalist's summary matched what I have read, so I answered with that in mind. I appreciate the detail.

That said.

On the other hand, no, it explicitly discredits Diamond's view. Yes, the article is broadly speaking about fox domestication, but it is in the context of the study of domestication as a whole. The fact that there was a missed Eurasian species is of interest, but is by far the least significant implication of that article. Namely that domestic potential, at the very least in mammals, is fundamentally the same process in every species.

It is not only a combination of odd factors, including sociability, generation-length, and many others often identified. Those did absolutely determine which species were practical domestics for historic societies using premodern methods. Indeed for OTL cultures, I'd be arguing quite differently. But we aren't talking about an OTL culture. We're querying what a conscious systematic effort could have accomplished, had it taken place in the premodern world.

Given the assumption that Mammalia universally contains these genes, it is not unreasonable to conjecture that there were species that could have been domesticated given the application of large scale, multigenerational, and systematic efforts never brought to bear historically. Even with methods limited by technical capabilities of earlier eras the potential is worth considering.

But then I did just post a link and the word "so," so I suppose you're forgiven for thinking that was my point!
 
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