WI: A Capitalist, Christian, Colonial Imperial China? (Zheng He Voyages stick)

Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

What POD's would be required to create a Christian Imperial China with a powerful Overseas empire?

I was thinking along the lines of a continued Zheng He styled Voyages with Chinese colonies in Singapore, Ceylon (sri lanka) and East Africa.

Timeline of the Ming treasure voyages - Wikipedia


The reason Behind the Christian Part is that traditional confusionism resulted in a inward, static society. Christianity requires expansion.

So, who can we make China Christian, Have a colonial empire and Capitalism?
 
Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

Pelranius said:
Any type of Christianity in particular?
Click to expand...
Eastern Orthodoxy, or Perhaps Oriental orthodoxy. Those have distinct Heirachy. However Nestorian Chistianity is a possibility.
I was thinking about how the Mongolian Introduced Christianity to China. Was wondering if they could have become the state religion.
However, do you know if any denominations of Christianity were more 'Evengalistic'/desiring to spread religion ? The Eastern Orthodoxy isn't exactly know for being a spready religion... :)
 
Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

One of the major reasons behind the collapse of Chinese Naval Domination was the lack of private enterprise. I want to change that!
 

raharris1973

I think your better bet is something more western-flavored, and of more recent vintage than any of the Nestorian stuff or Zheng He.

Best best would be a more chaotic Ming-Qing transition, where the Qing falter, and Koxinga's Tungning Kingdom is able to do better. The Kingdom already influenced by Christianity, western arms, and ships, leans even more to this. Before the 1600s are out, its ruler reconquer a divided mainland using alot of western tech and tactics and alliances, and convert to Catholicism, and they imitate the colonial model seen from the Europeans around them.
 

Armot

herkles said:
Why would a Christian China have more private enterprises then a non christian china?
Click to expand...
I've read it was not lack of private enterprise, but the use of fiat money that made China commercially inwards. So, you can make China like ancient Rome or contemporary America: make Chinese vassals to take loans and pay them back in Chinese currency, same with tributes, so China gets a net positive trade balance. All while China enforces contracts and protects trade routs of those using its currency.
 
Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

raharris1973 said:
I think your better bet is something more western-flavored, and of more recent vintage than any of the Nestorian stuff or Zheng He.

Best best would be a more chaotic Ming-Qing transition, where the Qing falter, and Koxinga's Tungning Kingdom is able to do better. The Kingdom already influenced by Christianity, western arms, and ships, leans even more to this. Before the 1600s are out, its ruler reconquer a divided mainland using alot of western tech and tactics and alliances, and convert to Catholicism, and they imitate the colonial model seen from the Europeans around them.
Click to expand...
Well, I was thinking of a Sanario of the Western powers rounding the Cape of good hope and suddenly encountering Chinese ships 10 times there size a
nd saying, "NOPE". Plus, Couldn't you have Mongolian Chatholisism, patronised by the Khan's take hold?
 
Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

Armot said:
I've read it was not lack of private enterprise, but the use of fiat money that made China commercially inwards. So, you can make China like ancient Rome or contemporary America: make Chinese vassals to take loans and pay them back in Chinese currency, same with tributes, so China gets a net positive trade balance. All while China enforces contracts and protects trade routs of those using its currency.
Click to expand...
huh. I was also thinking about China establishing, 'Port Forts', sort of like the Portuguese, to directly infuenced the region.
 
WilliamOfOckham

WilliamOfOckham

Iron_Lord said:
Christianity wouldn't nessessarily change the Private aspect but it would kill off the COnfusionist idea of Merchants being the Scum of the Earth.
Click to expand...

This is a ridiculous and, as far as I can imagine, entirely baseless characterisation of Chinese society. "Confusionist" is right.

Have you ever heard of derogation? Christian Europeans didn't consider trade to be a classy occupation either.
 
Last edited:
Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

WilliamOfOckham said:
This is a ridiculous and, as far as I can imagine, entirely baseless characterisation of Chinese society. "Confusionist" is right.

Have you ever heard of derogation? Christian Europeans didn't consider trade to be a classy occupation either.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I was trying to point out that the centralisation of the Ming Empire killed off the massive head start on the 'Age of Exploration'. As for the baseless characterisation, could you perhaps bring some light into the matter of Chinese society and Merchant classes that I missed ? I didn't quite realise my post was *that* Derogatory!
(I actually would like some constructive comments on how we could make the Ming empire a Capitalist, Christian, Colonial society!)
 
Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

WilliamOfOckham said:
This is a ridiculous and, as far as I can imagine, entirely baseless characterisation of Chinese society. "Confusionist" is right.

Have you ever heard of derogation? Christian Europeans didn't consider trade to be a classy occupation either.
Click to expand...
Plus, wouldn't Christianity get rid of confucianism?
 

CastIron

I think the reason you're getting push back on the Christian = progress, Confucian = conservative thing is that that part is rather blatantly untrue. China wasn't handicapped by Confucianism for most of its history. Look at the Song, who despite losing the heartland of the North China Plain to the Jurchin Jin Dynasty, still did very well, particularly in commerce. They only ended due to the overwhelming force known as the Mongol Empire in its ascendancy.

Furthermore, the Ming are a pretty poor place to start if you want a Christian China. They were basically a Han Chinese reaction to the Mongol Yuan, and if the Mongols imposed Christianity of any form on the Chinese, it would probably hasten the Red Turban Rebellion that saw the Yuan pushed out of China. Maybe the Tang could be converted by Nestorians, but even then it's a stretch.
 
Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

CastIron said:
I think the reason you're getting push back on the Christian = progress, Confucian = conservative thing is that that part is rather blatantly untrue. China wasn't handicapped by Confucianism for most of its history. Look at the Song, who despite losing the heartland of the North China Plain to the Jurchin Jin Dynasty, still did very well, particularly in commerce. They only ended due to the overwhelming force known as the Mongol Empire in its ascendancy.

Furthermore, the Ming are a pretty poor place to start if you want a Christian China. They were basically a Han Chinese reaction to the Mongol Yuan, and if the Mongols imposed Christianity of any form on the Chinese, it would probably hasten the Red Turban Rebellion that saw the Yuan pushed out of China. Maybe the Tang could be converted by Nestorians, but even then it's a stretch.
Click to expand...
Very True! So you think that the Capitalist, Colonial part is possible but not the Christian part. Cool.
I think I'm getting the whole Confucianism thing mixed up with the concept of Prolonged Unification= Technological Stagnation, as well as imperial mandate restricting Privatisation. My Whole idea was that Christianity could HELP invigoration expansion and KEEP the Ming Expanding.

(sorry everyone for rather blatant statments)
 
XFE

XFE

Iron_Lord said:
Privatisation
Click to expand...
I really have no idea what you mean by "the imperial mandate" and how it relates to (economic?) privitisation, but Song/Ming era Neo-Confucianism really didn't restrict economic development/capitalism.

I don't want to rehash previous criticisms relating to simplification/misunderstanding the historical context--but I really don't think that in this period of history, state ideology would affect macroeconomic development to the massive extent you seem to imply. The Song, theoretically a neo-Confucianist state which placed merchants at the bottom of the social ladder had a strong proto-capitalist economy and the highest GDP per capita in the world.
 

sxw564

One possibility is that song dynasty retake the north China and hold off the mongol, but mongol still going west and became a middleman between China and the Christendom. Christianity spread to China through trade and missionaries, then one of the emperor converted and make it state religion.
A christian China with a much better trade relationship with the west decide to cut off the middleman so they develop sea routes to the west and alone the way thay set up a lot of ports portugal style. It also take some spice islands so they can monopolize that sweet sweet spice trade.
Capitalist? check.
Christian? check.
Colonial? check .
Imperial China? double check.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top