A lot of threads going on here had a thinking that a disaster on another ship is inevitable if Titanic did not sank in 1912 so which ship would have the unfortunate role of ATL's "Titanic"?
Which ship would become an ATL "Titanic" if the namesake ship hasn't sunk in 1912?
- Thread starter SpaceMarathon
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I wouldn't think Lusitania or Britannic would be touted. Below the waterline explosions are not something that you would reasonably design a passenger liner to resist. Let alone when your cargo hold goes up in a second explosion.
RMS Empress of Ireland. A number of the same issues, and without Titanic to highlight the lifeboat problem, it's possible even more lives aboard her would've been lost.
How about the Imperator?
Launched 23 May 1912 for the Hamburg America Line, she was larger than the Olympic class when launched. Apparently she rolled a bit, partly due to the opulence of her fittings, the huge eagle on her bow and all sorts of things.
On 11 June 1913 Imperator leaves Cuxhaven to New York on her maiden voyage, on-board are all sorts of dignitaries, VIP's etc including Kaiser Wilhelm II all told - 4,986, consisting of 859 first-class passengers, 647 second-class passengers, 648 third-class passengers, 1,495 in the steerage, and 1,332 crew. Mid-Atlantic Imperator encounters a huge storm and a wave hits her and forces her over, she doesn't sink immediately but is taking on massive amounts of water. An SOS is sent which Olympic picks up, but then silence. Given the weather Olympic takes a while to get to the location only to find smashed up debris and a only 122 survivors in the few boats that where cut from their falls and survived. None of them are the Kaiser.
Launched 23 May 1912 for the Hamburg America Line, she was larger than the Olympic class when launched. Apparently she rolled a bit, partly due to the opulence of her fittings, the huge eagle on her bow and all sorts of things.
On 11 June 1913 Imperator leaves Cuxhaven to New York on her maiden voyage, on-board are all sorts of dignitaries, VIP's etc including Kaiser Wilhelm II all told - 4,986, consisting of 859 first-class passengers, 647 second-class passengers, 648 third-class passengers, 1,495 in the steerage, and 1,332 crew. Mid-Atlantic Imperator encounters a huge storm and a wave hits her and forces her over, she doesn't sink immediately but is taking on massive amounts of water. An SOS is sent which Olympic picks up, but then silence. Given the weather Olympic takes a while to get to the location only to find smashed up debris and a only 122 survivors in the few boats that where cut from their falls and survived. None of them are the Kaiser.
I seem to recall on that maiden voyage, Imperator had tons of marble stowed way too high.
I’d like to see some sort of Timeline on this. It can become interesting if it’s written right.How about the Imperator?
Launched 23 May 1912 for the Hamburg America Line, she was larger than the Olympic class when launched. Apparently she rolled a bit, partly due to the opulence of her fittings, the huge eagle on her bow and all sorts of things.
On 11 June 1913 Imperator leaves Cuxhaven to New York on her maiden voyage, on-board are all sorts of dignitaries, VIP's etc including Kaiser Wilhelm II all told - 4,986, consisting of 859 first-class passengers, 647 second-class passengers, 648 third-class passengers, 1,495 in the steerage, and 1,332 crew. Mid-Atlantic Imperator encounters a huge storm and a wave hits her and forces her over, she doesn't sink immediately but is taking on massive amounts of water. An SOS is sent which Olympic picks up, but then silence. Given the weather Olympic takes a while to get to the location only to find smashed up debris and a only 122 survivors in the few boats that where cut from their falls and survived. None of them are the Kaiser.
With only 14 minutes between the collision and sinking, how much would lifeboats actually help? 70% of the passengers died, and only a small number of life boats were able to be launched. More lifeboats might have resulted in more survivors, but it's not a wholey obvious solution.
Well, they had increased the count of lifeboats aboard as a response to Titanic, so it's possible instead of 70% it might've been a little higher. I agree it likely won't be much -- perhaps 75%? 80%?
Had it not been for the rest of the events of 1914, I imagine Empress of Ireland may have loomed larger in the imagination and history, and especially in the absence of Titanic's sinking.
Thank you - I am not sure I have the geopolitical knowledge for what might have happened if the Kaiser died in 1912. One impact I thought of was his son ascends and in a period of re-evaluation withdraws the 'guarantee' to Austria-Hungary. The British Shipping Lines and IMM would quietly outfit all their ships with more lifeboats on a rotational basis - 'Titanic Returns to Belfast for New Propeller Blade' is cover story for 'adding more lifeboat davits and boats' it would be a typically British thing to do it quietly without fuss and then claim later they had them all along. The Board of Trade would review their regulations sharpish. Marconi operators would likely become shipping line employees. Gigantic/Britannic, Aquitania would likely be rebuilt/changed to be double skinned as well as double bottomed with an empathies on increased stability. Possibly higher watertight compartment walls too.
Alternatively everyone writes it off as an 'Act of God' and carries on as before- though this is unlikely.
It depends on if there was actually time to get lifeboats launched. If you didn't have time to get off what you had, what good would more do you?
This would be quite plausible; the ship had such a reputation as a "drunken roller" that he (yes he, the Kaiser insisted on a male pronoun for the ship) earned the nickname "Limperator". Even after a drastic refit, the ship was still prone to rolling.How about the Imperator?
Launched 23 May 1912 for the Hamburg America Line, she was larger than the Olympic class when launched. Apparently she rolled a bit, partly due to the opulence of her fittings, the huge eagle on her bow and all sorts of things.
On 11 June 1913 Imperator leaves Cuxhaven to New York on her maiden voyage, on-board are all sorts of dignitaries, VIP's etc including Kaiser Wilhelm II all told - 4,986, consisting of 859 first-class passengers, 647 second-class passengers, 648 third-class passengers, 1,495 in the steerage, and 1,332 crew. Mid-Atlantic Imperator encounters a huge storm and a wave hits her and forces her over, she doesn't sink immediately but is taking on massive amounts of water. An SOS is sent which Olympic picks up, but then silence. Given the weather Olympic takes a while to get to the location only to find smashed up debris and a only 122 survivors in the few boats that where cut from their falls and survived. None of them are the Kaiser.
The Titanic sank because the bulkheads only went up to E deck (a short distance above the water line). This was corrected on the sister ship the Olympic in October 1912, during a refit. An inner watertight skin was also constructed in the boiler and engine rooms, to create a double hull. Improvements to the ship's pumps, and the number of lifeboats was increased from 20 to 68.
Had the Olympic collided with an iceberg similar to the one that felled the Titanic, it would have remained afloat (after the refit). The ship went on to ram a German submarine during the First World War, successfully sinking it without suffering any serious harm. In memory of this event, American troops paid to have a plaque installed in the Olympic, commemorating the incident. The Olympic continued to sail successfully for another 23 years after the Titanic.
Had the Olympic collided with an iceberg similar to the one that felled the Titanic, it would have remained afloat (after the refit). The ship went on to ram a German submarine during the First World War, successfully sinking it without suffering any serious harm. In memory of this event, American troops paid to have a plaque installed in the Olympic, commemorating the incident. The Olympic continued to sail successfully for another 23 years after the Titanic.
SS Imperator sank on 13 May 1913 taking the Kaiser with him. UK and US shipping companies quietly roll out safety improvements. The Kaiser's son Wilhelm, succeeds him and re-evaluates the German-AH relationship. AH continues to boil but Archduke Ferdinand takes the correct route in June 1914 and is not shot at. Gigantic is renamed Britannic as it seems less than wise to empathise her size after the Imperator disaster, but she is launched on time with some improvements built in and White Star get their three ship service. Emperor Franz Joseph dies in October 1916 sparking a crisis as Franz Ferdinand takes the throne promising reforms. The Russian Czar is busy making reforms of the army in preparations for a possible war, and the Ottomans are also modernising.
Cunard launches Aquitania and considers what to do with Lusitania and Mauritania which while reliable are now showing their age and it was a struggle to squeeze the extra lifeboats onto. Plans are laid down for a running mate to Aquitania, with Cunard eyeing the 1000ft mark, though uncertainty in Europe is beginning to effect sailing numbers esp Eastwards. A decision is delayed.
White Star escapes the effects of the American Immigration Act of 1920 by leaning heavily on their American owned International Mercantile Marine Co ownership led by Bruce Ismay who masterly managed American politicians to get an exception for American owned lines added to the bill. This saved IMM from collapse and IMM's near monopoly of US immigration trade would be a 'hot-topic' for interested politicians through the 20's boom years.
War breaks out in Europe in 1923 when Russia trying to prevent domestic problems, picks a fight with Germany over the Baltic. Germany calls in Allies and E. Europe erupts. Emperor Ferdinand's keeps A-H out to international disgust, but they have their own problems and soon Romania, Hungary, and most the neighbouring states are embroiled in the General War. France, Spain, UK and almost everyone else is slowly drawn in as the Ottomans, Greece, and Italy all try and settle various disputes. In the Pacific China, Korea, and Japan all take advantage of the distraction. Even Mexico explodes into a brief war with the USA, then collapses into civil war.
White Star, Cunard etc all get involved shipping troops and material around. In 1924 Mauritania is attacked by a German warship but manages to pour on her speed and survive. Britannic rams and sinks a sub, and Olympic takes out a bomber with her aux cruiser guns. Bismark goes to the bottom while loading troops despite all the safety improvements. Titanic is nearly sunk during a sneak attack while trying to pick up survivors from an American freighter leading to condemnation across the US and their entry into the European war in 1925. SS France while acting as a hospital ship hits a mine and sinks in the Mediterranean off Crete. Doric 'does an Imperator' and rolls over during an Atlantic storm, but is only 5 miles from Ireland and 75% of her complement are rescued.
One thing the war does empathise is the increasing role of aircraft. From spotters to fighters to early passenger planes it was clear that their reach and network were only going to grow, and with the General War pushing designs and engine speeds the threat to the shipping lines was obvious. White Star approached Cunard in 1926 just after Russia's and A-H's exhausted collapse had triggered the process that lead to the Treaty of Prague and the end of the war. The two shipping companies decided to investigate a joint venture into air travel, buying up Imperial Airlines and looking into ship to shore services, or internal flights. White Star knew IMM was not long for the world as the post war slump began to effect America and the immigration loophole was closed. Europe too went into a post war slump, and parts of Eastern Europe fell into a recession they did not recover from until the 40's.
White Star orders a new generation of ships as the 30's open. Oil fired diesel engines where the order of the day, and the 750ft ships providing a slightly slower service but still in decent luxury- all cabins had air conditioning and private bathrooms. The new ships- Atlantic, and Pacific are also built to cater for the cruising trade that was beginning to be popular esp as campaigners got Prohibition through the US Senate as part of a 'moral panic' post war. Cunard responded also replacing the Mauritania and Lusitania with a new set of ships - Nova Scotia, and Campania both 801ft long and oil powered also built for the Atlantic and cruising with outdoor pools. The traditional rivalry on sea however did not stop the jointly owned Britannia Airlines from growing very quickly over the decade and making the most of a Royal Mail contract for mail and packages across Europe and with an experimental service across the Atlantic. A subsidiary Australia- New Zealand service also proved popular, as did internal Canadian spin off's.
In 1933 the economy had improved to the point where Cunard announced their first 1000ft liner - Queen Victoria, a three funnelled 83,000 ton liner that clearly showed the prevalent Art Deco style with her clean sweeping decks, pools, and huge public spaces that made almost every other liner on the seas look old and dowdy. The public were taken with the 'Queen Vic' eagerly following her build and launch in 1935. She captured the Empire's heart when she broke the Blue Riband record on her maiden voyage. Not to outdone the French Line Compagnie Générale Transatlantique announced the France in 1934, an ultra modern Art Deco dream at 1050ft long and of a radical design that outdid even Queen Victoria's sleek lines with massive open spaces due to the use of split funnel uptakes and several deck high atriums. France would boost a cinema and pools for both her travelling classes of passenger. When she launched in 1936 she blew everyone away taking the Blue Riband from Queen Victoria on her maiden voyages west and eastbound starting a rivalry that was captured on film by Orson Wells in 1937's Ships of the Line who's two star crossed lovers - Clarke Gable and Vivien Leigh are out-shined by the liners they crossed the Atlantic in.
The improved economy and continuing Prohibition saw White Star focus on cruising launching several smaller 600ft ships using the new welding methods built exclusively for the US market (using the American Line name they retained from the collapsed IMM) and cargo through its Leyland Line subsidiary, launching several new ships that used the new 'road-rail-sea container' that had become popular in the British Empire. However, White Star could not ignore the Queen Victoria and France entirely and in 1937 announced the Oceanic, named for White Star's first ship. Oceanic would be a monster- 1111ft long, 92,000ton, an Art Deco inspired behemoth, but unlike the France or Queen Victoria, Oceanic would be built for luxury not speed as per White Star's standard practice; nothing was too good for passengers across both her passenger classes, even the crew spaces were as good as first class on some lines. Oceanic's progress would be tracked by an eager public- her launch in 1939 pushed the Hungarian Socialist Revolution from the front pages. When she had her maiden voyage in 1940 she was totally full and on return carried eastbound President Roosevelt to Europe for talks with Prime Minster Atlee who proclaimed her 'a marvel of the age'. The Transatlantic race was far from done...
Cunard launches Aquitania and considers what to do with Lusitania and Mauritania which while reliable are now showing their age and it was a struggle to squeeze the extra lifeboats onto. Plans are laid down for a running mate to Aquitania, with Cunard eyeing the 1000ft mark, though uncertainty in Europe is beginning to effect sailing numbers esp Eastwards. A decision is delayed.
White Star escapes the effects of the American Immigration Act of 1920 by leaning heavily on their American owned International Mercantile Marine Co ownership led by Bruce Ismay who masterly managed American politicians to get an exception for American owned lines added to the bill. This saved IMM from collapse and IMM's near monopoly of US immigration trade would be a 'hot-topic' for interested politicians through the 20's boom years.
War breaks out in Europe in 1923 when Russia trying to prevent domestic problems, picks a fight with Germany over the Baltic. Germany calls in Allies and E. Europe erupts. Emperor Ferdinand's keeps A-H out to international disgust, but they have their own problems and soon Romania, Hungary, and most the neighbouring states are embroiled in the General War. France, Spain, UK and almost everyone else is slowly drawn in as the Ottomans, Greece, and Italy all try and settle various disputes. In the Pacific China, Korea, and Japan all take advantage of the distraction. Even Mexico explodes into a brief war with the USA, then collapses into civil war.
White Star, Cunard etc all get involved shipping troops and material around. In 1924 Mauritania is attacked by a German warship but manages to pour on her speed and survive. Britannic rams and sinks a sub, and Olympic takes out a bomber with her aux cruiser guns. Bismark goes to the bottom while loading troops despite all the safety improvements. Titanic is nearly sunk during a sneak attack while trying to pick up survivors from an American freighter leading to condemnation across the US and their entry into the European war in 1925. SS France while acting as a hospital ship hits a mine and sinks in the Mediterranean off Crete. Doric 'does an Imperator' and rolls over during an Atlantic storm, but is only 5 miles from Ireland and 75% of her complement are rescued.
One thing the war does empathise is the increasing role of aircraft. From spotters to fighters to early passenger planes it was clear that their reach and network were only going to grow, and with the General War pushing designs and engine speeds the threat to the shipping lines was obvious. White Star approached Cunard in 1926 just after Russia's and A-H's exhausted collapse had triggered the process that lead to the Treaty of Prague and the end of the war. The two shipping companies decided to investigate a joint venture into air travel, buying up Imperial Airlines and looking into ship to shore services, or internal flights. White Star knew IMM was not long for the world as the post war slump began to effect America and the immigration loophole was closed. Europe too went into a post war slump, and parts of Eastern Europe fell into a recession they did not recover from until the 40's.
White Star orders a new generation of ships as the 30's open. Oil fired diesel engines where the order of the day, and the 750ft ships providing a slightly slower service but still in decent luxury- all cabins had air conditioning and private bathrooms. The new ships- Atlantic, and Pacific are also built to cater for the cruising trade that was beginning to be popular esp as campaigners got Prohibition through the US Senate as part of a 'moral panic' post war. Cunard responded also replacing the Mauritania and Lusitania with a new set of ships - Nova Scotia, and Campania both 801ft long and oil powered also built for the Atlantic and cruising with outdoor pools. The traditional rivalry on sea however did not stop the jointly owned Britannia Airlines from growing very quickly over the decade and making the most of a Royal Mail contract for mail and packages across Europe and with an experimental service across the Atlantic. A subsidiary Australia- New Zealand service also proved popular, as did internal Canadian spin off's.
In 1933 the economy had improved to the point where Cunard announced their first 1000ft liner - Queen Victoria, a three funnelled 83,000 ton liner that clearly showed the prevalent Art Deco style with her clean sweeping decks, pools, and huge public spaces that made almost every other liner on the seas look old and dowdy. The public were taken with the 'Queen Vic' eagerly following her build and launch in 1935. She captured the Empire's heart when she broke the Blue Riband record on her maiden voyage. Not to outdone the French Line Compagnie Générale Transatlantique announced the France in 1934, an ultra modern Art Deco dream at 1050ft long and of a radical design that outdid even Queen Victoria's sleek lines with massive open spaces due to the use of split funnel uptakes and several deck high atriums. France would boost a cinema and pools for both her travelling classes of passenger. When she launched in 1936 she blew everyone away taking the Blue Riband from Queen Victoria on her maiden voyages west and eastbound starting a rivalry that was captured on film by Orson Wells in 1937's Ships of the Line who's two star crossed lovers - Clarke Gable and Vivien Leigh are out-shined by the liners they crossed the Atlantic in.
The improved economy and continuing Prohibition saw White Star focus on cruising launching several smaller 600ft ships using the new welding methods built exclusively for the US market (using the American Line name they retained from the collapsed IMM) and cargo through its Leyland Line subsidiary, launching several new ships that used the new 'road-rail-sea container' that had become popular in the British Empire. However, White Star could not ignore the Queen Victoria and France entirely and in 1937 announced the Oceanic, named for White Star's first ship. Oceanic would be a monster- 1111ft long, 92,000ton, an Art Deco inspired behemoth, but unlike the France or Queen Victoria, Oceanic would be built for luxury not speed as per White Star's standard practice; nothing was too good for passengers across both her passenger classes, even the crew spaces were as good as first class on some lines. Oceanic's progress would be tracked by an eager public- her launch in 1939 pushed the Hungarian Socialist Revolution from the front pages. When she had her maiden voyage in 1940 she was totally full and on return carried eastbound President Roosevelt to Europe for talks with Prime Minster Atlee who proclaimed her 'a marvel of the age'. The Transatlantic race was far from done...
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Deleted member 2186
Loved Post 17...
...Ogrebear, my lad, congratulations !
Get a TL going on this - pronto !
...Ogrebear, my lad, congratulations !
Get a TL going on this - pronto !
The trouble is you have to have a disaster where the lack of lifeboats actually matters. With something like the Lusitania or the Empress of Ireland or even the Imperator scenario suggested above, the ships sink too quickly. You'd need something like the Titanic disaster or a shorter Republic incident, long enough for the lack of lifeboats to matter but not so long that other ships make it in time.