Which nation would be a global power if another country wasn't "holding it back"?

saint polype

Cue "If I didn't have you"

Are there nations in this world who would literally be global powers if it weren't for one powerful rival nation who, over the course of history, has locked them into a sort of balance of power (or just completely overwhelms them in every metric)?

In that AH scenario, the (more powerful) rival could either not exist at all as an independent country, or be severely weakened in some other way. Whatever you pick, it should literally be the ONLY metric you change; everything else that changes should at least be plausibly butterfly-linked to the rival's weakness, and that specifically.

Bonus points if your resulting new superpower is actually considerably mightier/more influential than both its OT self and the OT rival you removed.

Double bonus if the OT rival you pick is actually considerably weaker than your nation of choice, but still just enough of a nuisance to block all of its aspirations.
 

WunWun

France and Germany respectively.
Remove one and the other dominates the European landmass, and ceteris paribus, vast swathes of the world.
 
Skallagrim

Skallagrim

Banned
Mike Stearns said:
I think you might need to remove Britain in order for France or Germany to have a true planetary empire.
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Historically, either France or Germany really going crazy has required the collaboration of the Anglosphere and Russia, plus just about everyone else, in order to be brought to heel. If either France or Germany comes to dominate Europe (because the other somehow fails to form, or disintegrates utterly), the resulting power of this "European Empire" (Neo-Carolingian Empire?) would be great enough to grind down Russia and the Anglosphere. It won't be easy, it'll be the opposite of easy, but I think that 'removing Britain' is in fact an option for such an empire.

(The trick is forming this empire. Britain will do everything it can, sacrifice anything it has to, in order to kill this threat while it's still coalescing. In fact, preventing something like this was a primary goal of British foreign policy for a very long time.)
 
Crystal

Crystal

Banned
Grand Prince Paul II. said:
It would not be global.

On the other hand, preserving the Austrian Netherlands and the Imperial East Indian Company aka Ostend Company could change that.
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I have to disagree with that. If the Prussians were defeated in say, the 7 years war, then Austria would have been the nation to unite Germany, build a colonial empire, and challenge Britain for title of world superpower.
 

Grand Prince Paul II.

Lord Arthur said:
I have to disagree with that. If the Prussians were defeated in say, the 7 years war, then Austria would have been the nation to unite Germany, build a colonial empire, and challenge Britain for title of world superpower.
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The end of the Prussian rival would not solve other issues like the opposition of France and the middle-sized German states against this kind of Germany.
 

BellaGerant

How are you classifying 'global power'? Are we talking the Great Powers (US, China, Russia, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Japan), just economic titans (the G7 and G20), or global presence superpowers (USA, Soviet Union (formerly))?

WunWun said:
France and Germany respectively.
Remove one and the other dominates the European landmass, and ceteris paribus, vast swathes of the world.
Click to expand...
Eh, unified Germany's only been around for 150 some years and France was never in a situation that it could overtake the USA, Russia, or the UK, ceteris paribus. If you're talking about the HRE, well, that was fatally fractured OTL.

France's main rival would have to be either the Habsburgs of Austria and Spain or the English. Removing either of them in the optimal period (the Habsburgs in the 1500-1600s, the English in the 1700-1800s) and French would certainly be spoken more across Europe, as it once was.

But, seeing as France is considered a Great Power and a member of the G7, I'd say it's a global power on some level.

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Perhaps Sweden during the Stormaktstiden with Russia? No loss in the Great Northern War and a king more inclined towards peace would probably have resulted in the Baltic becoming a Swedish lake, with colonisation certainly on the table going forward. Or is that too short of a rivalry?

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If it doesn't have to be strictly rivals, various Korean kingdoms could have risen to great regional (perhaps even global, if we look at the Korean peninsula's population and the South's prosperity) status with a weaker China, especially the Goguryeo kingdom. Had the Tang been as incompetent as the Sui in invading eastward, the Gorguryeo stood a great chance at securing dominance over mainland NE Asia and all its vast resources. Or, had the Silla been destroyed prior to their alliance with the Tang, the Gorguryeo would not have had a two-front war during their political instability, which would afford a much more favourable military situation for the Gorguryeo. Not that would necessarily make a global power (with nearly 1000 years of butterflies, there's plenty of ways that could play out) but, with consideration of NE Asia's historical wealth and the present day prosperity of the region (minus North Korea, which is still rich in manpower and natural resources), it's not ridiculous to say that, absent a strong Chinese or conquest dynasty empire on its borders, some Korean empire could take a place on the world stage (hell, Korea unified back in the 1990s would beat out the UK and France in population and Italy in total GDP, which would place it in the top 8 economies).

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Lord Arthur said:
I have to disagree with that. If the Prussians were defeated in say, the 7 years war, then Austria would have been the nation to unite Germany, build a colonial empire, and challenge Britain for title of world superpower.
Click to expand...
That's assuming the Habsburgs would ever push to unite Germany, which they showed little inclination towards OTL even when the preeminent German power, and the other Great Powers would simply let them. Austria had far greater non-German holdings than Prussia and a much longer history of opposing French interests while being a rival of the Russians in the Balkans (which Prussia had not the ability to influence in nearly the same way). Plus, that sort of empire would have massive troubles with minorities (Polish, Hungarian, Czech) and religion (the North German Protestants vs the Catholic everyone else), security concerns in every direction, and divided interests+coasts that would hinder the creation and maintenance of a grand fleet capable of beating out the Royal Navy.
 

The Undead Martyr

Spain or Italy, if they'd done better for themselves in the middle ages, could have strangled the Ottomans in the cradle and dominated the Mediterranean, eventually expanding out into the Horn of Africa (and to a lesser extent, into the New World, well more than OTL) and India as well as coming to dominate a good chunk of Africa itself.

France and Iran are my main contenders for "could have been a lot bigger and more influential than they are". OTL France with the Rhine Border (say if the Burgundians inherit France) could take the Habsburg's place in Early Modern Europe, as well as expanding overseas. Likewise Iran not having to deal with the Ottomans and/or Russia and/or the Romans, and able to keep ahold of Mesopotamia, Syria, Egypt, and Transoxiana, eventually dominating Southwest and Central Asia plus the Indian Subcontinent, possibly also involving herself in Indonesia, or the fringes of what is now China like the Ottomans did briefly OTL (albeit to a somewhat greater extent perhaps).
 

cmakk1012

A weird one: Armenia, if not for its horrendous geopolitical location directly between Rome and Persia, could have been at least a middle power.
 

Mike Stearns

Skallagrim said:
Historically, either France or Germany really going crazy has required the collaboration of the Anglosphere and Russia, plus just about everyone else, in order to be brought to heel. If either France or Germany comes to dominate Europe (because the other somehow fails to form, or disintegrates utterly), the resulting power of this "European Empire" (Neo-Carolingian Empire?) would be great enough to grind down Russia and the Anglosphere. It won't be easy, it'll be the opposite of easy, but I think that 'removing Britain' is in fact an option for such an empire.

(The trick is forming this empire. Britain will do everything it can, sacrifice anything it has to, in order to kill this threat while it's still coalescing. In fact, preventing something like this was a primary goal of British foreign policy for a very long time.)
Click to expand...

That’s why I figure you would have somehow butterfly Britain’s imperial century for this to be possible. Maybe Britain goes through a prolonged isolationist phase similar to Japan’s? I’m not really sure how you the British want to do that though.
 

Richard V

Maybe Egypt, were it not for the Persians/Macedonians/Romans/Arabs/Ottomans

Eastern Romans, were it not for the Persians/Arabs

Persians, were it not for the Romans/Arabs/Mongols

Song China, were it not for the Mongols

Sweden, were it not for Russia
 
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