Where is the "natural" boundary between North and South?
- Thread starter Socrates
- Start date
Where does the South begin?
There was a fascinating discussion on this topic on The Atlantic... i'll include the choice maps but the link and discussion are absolutely worth spending some time with...
Link: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/where-does-the-south-begin/70052/
To me, if you are from a state that seceded from the Union, you're from the south; but it's obviously more complicated than that, as the discussion topics show
There was a fascinating discussion on this topic on The Atlantic... i'll include the choice maps but the link and discussion are absolutely worth spending some time with...
Link: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/where-does-the-south-begin/70052/
To me, if you are from a state that seceded from the Union, you're from the south; but it's obviously more complicated than that, as the discussion topics show
Solomaxwell6
Banned
Just a reminder to people, OP is asking specifically about the most natural line dividing "slave territory" and "free territory." This is a far different question than "How is the modern OTL north/south defined?"
No. It really doesn't. "It happened in a video game" is very unrelated to "This is historically plausible." I've had a Victoria II game where China was annexed by Russia, Africa was one giant German colony, and the US lost everything west of the Mississippi to Mexico. This does not make it "an interesting look into what could be where" because none of that is at all possible. You might as well just completely make stuff up (for example, I am now thinking of a map where Paraguay establishes a colony in Paris... that is an interesting look at what could be where).
No. It really doesn't. "It happened in a video game" is very unrelated to "This is historically plausible." I've had a Victoria II game where China was annexed by Russia, Africa was one giant German colony, and the US lost everything west of the Mississippi to Mexico. This does not make it "an interesting look into what could be where" because none of that is at all possible. You might as well just completely make stuff up (for example, I am now thinking of a map where Paraguay establishes a colony in Paris... that is an interesting look at what could be where).
Caesar Australis
Banned
The Virginia/Maryland border. That's how America's founders saw it at least, that's why they put the capital on the border. You could reasonably claim that the North is encroaching and pushing the border further South however, and that the Cuban areas of Florida are no longer Southern.
Aside from their anti-slavery stance they were/are also pacifist and feminist(to the point that they even refuse to use the terms Mr and Mrs), and were from their foundation inherently nonconformist. That's as far left as it got in the era in which they were founded.
How exactly do the Quakers qualify as conservative?
Aside from their anti-slavery stance they were/are also pacifist and feminist(to the point that they even refuse to use the terms Mr and Mrs), and were from their foundation inherently nonconformist. That's as far left as it got in the era in which they were founded.
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The States that vote Republican are southern, this thread can now be closed.
I am only jokinglt referring to "The Southern Strategy" a plan by the Republicans to get southern votes
Utah is far too white to be a Southern state.
Also: how about them Mormons.
When I was living in Chicago, some of my co-workers subscribed to the only-slightly-intended-to-be-humorous theory that anything south of I-80 is Dixieland.
Thanks for these. Could you explain the fourth and fifth maps?
Always nice to have some one pay attention
Really? I was always under the impression that the capital deliberately placed further south than the north-south boundary in exchange for the federal government assuming war debts...
William Penn had slaves, as did quite a few members of the Quaker upper class in early Pennsylvania history. One of the bigger reasons for slavery's decline was the influx of Germans and Ulster Scots whose agricultural practices were well-suited for the Pennsylvania climate... Their indentured labor was much cheaper than the buying of slaves.
I think we need to look at this away from the modern perspective, and back to the pre-1900 view. For example, honestly Florida(my homestate) is truly 'southern'(at least in my view) around the panhandle and north. Aside from that, Naples and Fort Myers may have some southern qualities just because it has a lot of Panhandle people living there essentially. Thing is rural, Florida is southern, especially in the north, but its urban centers are well away from Southern Culture.
Southern Culture dominates the Panhandle and northern rural areas, while a more 'modern', 'urban', maybe if you want to call it "northern" culture, dominates the rest and the urban centers, with Caribbean culture dominating the entirety of the Southeast, including Florida's largest population center(Miami-Dade county.)
However, pre-1900, Florida was pretty much as Southern as Southern states come. Though Southern culture always remained in the north, as the south was inhospitable till recent times(c. 1900's, late 1800s.)
Southern Culture dominates the Panhandle and northern rural areas, while a more 'modern', 'urban', maybe if you want to call it "northern" culture, dominates the rest and the urban centers, with Caribbean culture dominating the entirety of the Southeast, including Florida's largest population center(Miami-Dade county.)
However, pre-1900, Florida was pretty much as Southern as Southern states come. Though Southern culture always remained in the north, as the south was inhospitable till recent times(c. 1900's, late 1800s.)
I am basically a native of Texas, and I can tell you my honest opinion, which may shock some of you, BTW: Anything west of Hopkins County, or north of the 31st parallel, ain't Southern.
Here, check out this little map I made:
Red is Southern, the Orange is Southwestern, and guess what the light blue is.
Here, check out this little map I made:
Red is Southern, the Orange is Southwestern, and guess what the light blue is.
I am basically a native of Texas, and I can tell you my honest opinion, which may shock some of you, BTW: Anything west of Hopkins County, or north of the 31st parallel, ain't Southern.
Here, check out this little map I made:
Red is Southern, the Orange is Southwestern, and guess what the light blue is.
i had been told by family in Texas that it went farther south than that on the coast everything else looked fine though
Solomaxwell6
Banned
Check out this link, where he got all the maps from. Fourth map is accent, fifth map is whether or not McDonalds restaurants had sweet tea prior to it becoming available nationally.
If you're looking for a natural boundary line, I'd go with rivers: the Potomac to the Ohio to the Mississippi and then maybe to the Missouri/Osage.
If you're interested in the historical, demographic, agricultural reasons, that these rivers make sense, then I think you've got that info in the rest of the posts.
As an East Texas native, though, I'd argue that the South in Texas doesn't really extend even as far as Houston: in the true Deep South, when you order iced tea, it is served sweet (or you're asked whether you want it sweet). In Houston, you are served unsweetened tea and almost never asked.
If you're interested in the historical, demographic, agricultural reasons, that these rivers make sense, then I think you've got that info in the rest of the posts.
As an East Texas native, though, I'd argue that the South in Texas doesn't really extend even as far as Houston: in the true Deep South, when you order iced tea, it is served sweet (or you're asked whether you want it sweet). In Houston, you are served unsweetened tea and almost never asked.
Well, you might not be able to get coleslaw on a hotdog in Jefferson County, but I definitely had my first pulled pork sandwich with coleslaw in Harper's Ferry when I was seven years old.
NothingNow
Banned
Huzzah! Another one of us! Soon we shall outnumber the Michiganders.
It Depends. Everyone's right on top of each other in much of the state, mostly because of how fast the growth has been, so it's a bit more gradual, although the basis for the divide was probably solidified either somewhere back in the 1880's, or durring the first development boom in the 20's.
Yeah, right up until the dawn of the Citrus era, and the founding of Ybor City, most of the Population was in the Northern part of the state, with the only real exceptions being Tampa, Miami, and Key West. Although, there was some decent settlement around most of the southern tier of the state back before the seminole wars, like what that crazy fucker braden built.