Sounds like a great Idea! (yes with a capital I) PM me and I'll shoot you my email.
-Gen_Patton
When the Wind Blew: a P&S Open Thread
- Thread starter Gen_Patton
- Start date
Sounds like a great Idea! (yes with a capital I) PM me and I'll shoot you my email.
-Gen_Patton
Falkenburg
Monthly Donor
Petike's P&S Chapter List
For reference for all those wishing to consult P&S Canon.
Protect & Survive: Chapter List
Compiled by Petike.
Falkenburg
For reference for all those wishing to consult P&S Canon.
Protect & Survive: Chapter List
Compiled by Petike.
Falkenburg
Ingsoc75, an interactive P&S??
Good idea!!!! I like it and I'd like to help with it
One of my upcoming update will be a radio broadcast.
Good idea!!!! I like it and I'd like to help with it
One of my upcoming update will be a radio broadcast.
OK, guys, I'm gonna go all-out into controversial territory :
Assuming what's left of the smaller Warsaw Pact governments and armed forces (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc.) will still be operational in some capacity, and bearing in mind what's hapenning in München and Finland in the last few updates of the main TL and its spinoffs...
Do you think the Soviets might just go "To hell with politeness !" and make these smaller WP leftovers their direct subordinates ? (If not out of pragmatism or necessity, then by an appeal for their obedience to the "top dog with the gun".)
Given how each of the three nations I've mentioned had bad experiences with the Soviet regime ever since they came into its sphere of influence, I wouldn't be shocked if some people in said countries (even actual authorities that are supposed to be obedient) would just rebel and tell the Soviets to screw themselves. In short, a steady build-up to an anti-Soviet backlash among the non-Soviet WP survivors. One that would be positively disastrous in the long run for any surviving Soviet army personnel and their collaborators. A superior number of surviving military equipment can help you bully the locals into obedience only for a limited amount of time. If they revolt, things will get nasty for the Soviets, especially for any smug commanders who think they can do as they please (now that Moscow is gone and no one's in a hurry to give them orders). As with all unwanted occupants in history, the post-Exchange Soviet armies strewn across the remnants of Germany and western WP countries are in for some tough times: They're in a foreign country, will run out of supplies sooner or later, and if they resort to only bullying the surviving military and the civilian populace, they risk gradually losing what little support they had among their supposed allies.
The reasoning behind the backlash would probably go something like this: "We fought you're damned war against the Americans and Western Europeans just as you told us to do. We did our duty, we did our best. But we've lost nearly everything, our countries are almost completely irradiated write-offs with hideously crippled infrastructure and tens of millions of dead. We're worse off than the USSR, since it could at least shrug off some of the attacks due to its size. We didn't have that advantage, we've paid a horryfying price just to make the glory hounds in Moscow happy - and you know that well ! So... Either you Soviets start treating us seriously and cooperating with us, or you might as well get paranoid every time you go to sleep. Double-cross us and you won't get any supplies and won't be granted safe passage back home, if you'll wish to leave in the future..."
Sounds a bit cruel towards the Soviets ? Yes, especially if the victims would be the more sane common soldiers. But I wouldn't be surprised by reactions like this. There's a certain threshold to being someone's meatshield/whipping boy, even prior to the events of the war. And I personally can't imagine the survivors of the western WP being a naive "Yes-man" to the Soviets for all eternity. If you thought the Brits showed tranquil fury towards those poor Soviet submariners (before deciding to comfort them), you haven't seen nothing yet in terms of anger.
Assuming what's left of the smaller Warsaw Pact governments and armed forces (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc.) will still be operational in some capacity, and bearing in mind what's hapenning in München and Finland in the last few updates of the main TL and its spinoffs...
Do you think the Soviets might just go "To hell with politeness !" and make these smaller WP leftovers their direct subordinates ? (If not out of pragmatism or necessity, then by an appeal for their obedience to the "top dog with the gun".)
Given how each of the three nations I've mentioned had bad experiences with the Soviet regime ever since they came into its sphere of influence, I wouldn't be shocked if some people in said countries (even actual authorities that are supposed to be obedient) would just rebel and tell the Soviets to screw themselves. In short, a steady build-up to an anti-Soviet backlash among the non-Soviet WP survivors. One that would be positively disastrous in the long run for any surviving Soviet army personnel and their collaborators. A superior number of surviving military equipment can help you bully the locals into obedience only for a limited amount of time. If they revolt, things will get nasty for the Soviets, especially for any smug commanders who think they can do as they please (now that Moscow is gone and no one's in a hurry to give them orders). As with all unwanted occupants in history, the post-Exchange Soviet armies strewn across the remnants of Germany and western WP countries are in for some tough times: They're in a foreign country, will run out of supplies sooner or later, and if they resort to only bullying the surviving military and the civilian populace, they risk gradually losing what little support they had among their supposed allies.
The reasoning behind the backlash would probably go something like this: "We fought you're damned war against the Americans and Western Europeans just as you told us to do. We did our duty, we did our best. But we've lost nearly everything, our countries are almost completely irradiated write-offs with hideously crippled infrastructure and tens of millions of dead. We're worse off than the USSR, since it could at least shrug off some of the attacks due to its size. We didn't have that advantage, we've paid a horryfying price just to make the glory hounds in Moscow happy - and you know that well ! So... Either you Soviets start treating us seriously and cooperating with us, or you might as well get paranoid every time you go to sleep. Double-cross us and you won't get any supplies and won't be granted safe passage back home, if you'll wish to leave in the future..."
Sounds a bit cruel towards the Soviets ? Yes, especially if the victims would be the more sane common soldiers.
But I wouldn't be surprised by reactions like this. There's a certain threshold to being someone's meatshield/whipping boy, even prior to the events of the war. And I personally can't imagine the survivors of the western WP being a naive "Yes-man" to the Soviets for all eternity. If you thought the Brits showed tranquil fury towards those poor Soviet submariners (before deciding to comfort them), you haven't seen nothing yet in terms of anger.I think that remnant soviet units will face serious risks from the other WP citizens because most people never believed in communism, even among many nominally communists. The risk will be even higher from western citizens in occupied territory.OK, guys, I'm gonna go all-out into controversial territory :
Assuming what's left of the smaller Warsaw Pact governments and armed forces (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc.) will still be operational in some capacity, and bearing in mind what's hapenning in München and Finland in the last few updates of the main TL and its spinoffs...
Do you think the Soviets might just go "To hell with politeness !" and make these smaller WP leftovers their direct subordinates ? (If not out of pragmatism or necessity, then by an appeal for their obedience to the "top dog with the gun".)
Given how each of the three nations I've mentioned had bad experiences with the Soviet regime ever since they came into its sphere of influence, I wouldn't be shocked if some people in said countries (even actual authorities that are supposed to be obedient) would just rebel and tell the Soviets to screw themselves. In short, a steady build-up to an anti-Soviet backlash among the non-Soviet WP survivors. One that would be positively disastrous in the long run for any surviving Soviet army personnel and their collaborators. A superior number of surviving military equipment can help you bully the locals into obedience only for a limited amount of time. If they revolt, things will get nasty for the Soviets, especially for any smug commanders who think they can do as they please (now that Moscow is gone and no one's in a hurry to give them orders). As with all unwanted occupants in history, the post-Exchange Soviet armies strewn across the remnants of Germany and western WP countries are in for some tough times: They're in a foreign country, will run out of supplies sooner or later, and if they resort to only bullying the surviving military and the civilian populace, they risk gradually losing what little support they had among their supposed allies.
The reasoning behind the backlash would probably go something like this: "We fought you're damned war against the Americans and Western Europeans just as you told us to do. We did our duty, we did our best. But we've lost nearly everything, our countries are almost completely irradiated write-offs with hideously crippled infrastructure and tens of millions of dead. We're worse off than the USSR, since it could at least shrug off some of the attacks due to its size. We didn't have that advantage, we've paid a horryfying price just to make the glory hounds in Moscow happy - and you know that well ! So... Either you Soviets start treating us seriously and cooperating with us, or you might as well get paranoid every time you go to sleep. Double-cross us and you won't get any supplies and won't be granted safe passage back home, if you'll wish to leave in the future..."
Sounds a bit cruel towards the Soviets ? Yes, especially if the victims would be the more sane common soldiers.
Good analysis, Petike.
I'd say that the Soviet forces would by and large know that in the long run they have to bend in to the locals or die. Honestly, a bunch of Soviet servicemen removed from their home country with no easy way of getting back are not a viable population to make up a ruling class. I can see them slowly integrating themselves with the locals, if not without difficulty. Some of the less wise commanders would try to rule as strictly as possible, but what they would face is full-scale revolt once ammo stocks run out. Of course, some of these tyrants might go on for quite a long time, ruling over little fiefdoms of slavery and oppression before being overwhelmed and pacified by larger states.
I'd say that the Soviet forces would by and large know that in the long run they have to bend in to the locals or die. Honestly, a bunch of Soviet servicemen removed from their home country with no easy way of getting back are not a viable population to make up a ruling class. I can see them slowly integrating themselves with the locals, if not without difficulty. Some of the less wise commanders would try to rule as strictly as possible, but what they would face is full-scale revolt once ammo stocks run out. Of course, some of these tyrants might go on for quite a long time, ruling over little fiefdoms of slavery and oppression before being overwhelmed and pacified by larger states.
It depends on how many of those Soviet officers and soldiers are real communists and if there's enough local allies to last a while (this could be the case of Czechoslovakia and East Germany - other lasting statelets are going to be based on luck and nukes).
Nukes would only work as a deterrent against actual nations, like Switzerland or the UK. The locals have to be dealt with conventionally.
Nobody will believe in Communism anymore. But the Soviets are an army and the units know that they have to stay intact and work as a group to survive. They cannot survive without taking the locals into account (particularly in a place like Munich, where there are a lot of Germans left), and they aren't Nazis or a viable population so there can't be any major ethnocentrism on the part of the Soviets unless they want to get kicked out fast. They will have to make plans not just for themselves but for the local population to survive, which means making preparations for the winter, rebuilding infrastructure, that sort of thing. Simply due to the overwhelming economic pressures the focus will shift from guns to tools, i.e. military force will be subordinated to technocratic needs.
But who knows. Maybe the Soviet general in charge of Munich is a massive racist asshole and sees the Germans as people to be enslaved. If that's the case I give him no more than five years tops, and it'll probably end in his nuclear suicide.
I'm glad you understood the point I was trying to make about the post-Exchange situation in that particular region.
I was speculating about this partly because I'm planning to get a Czechoslovak P&S spinoff off the ground during the summer or autumn months. It'll be called The Sun Sets Behind the High Hill - Survivor Tales from P&S Czechoslovakia.
Jack's recent update about a rump Soviet provisional government set up in the surviving half of München and some of the detailed stuff about the war in Germany written by Hörnla and Chipperback gave me quite a bit of food for thought...
I was speculating about this partly because I'm planning to get a Czechoslovak P&S spinoff off the ground during the summer or autumn months. It'll be called The Sun Sets Behind the High Hill - Survivor Tales from P&S Czechoslovakia.
Jack's recent update about a rump Soviet provisional government set up in the surviving half of München and some of the detailed stuff about the war in Germany written by Hörnla and Chipperback gave me quite a bit of food for thought...
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In East Germany at least I doubt any resistance is possible save for a few localised attacks.NATO would have bombed the place to the point that surviving east germans are unlikely to be able to mount a resistance to the soviets.Poland is actually quite likely to rebel but a united polish state is unlikely to appear more like small rump states.A wild card would be Romania since it had no soviet presence and was actually quite opposed to the Soviet Union.Of course in an all out war the soviets would have repaid the romanian attitude with a few nukes and ironically NATO would probably take out some places there.Still compared to Poland it should still have something like a surviving government.Still in the aftermath of war much of Central Europe would be a mess with surviving troops from all the countries involved trying to survive as best they can,inevitably some would establish de facto countries where they operate.The post war map of anything east of the Rhine is pretty much up for grabs.
ivfl, I pretty much agree with you there. Poland would be very messy.
Did you by any chance see Hörnla's nukemap or his "Swiss report"? Those would doubtless be quite helpful.
Sounds like a good idea. I myself have a story I want to write (eventually) concerning the situation in northern Germany.
Did you by any chance see Hörnla's nukemap or his "Swiss report"? Those would doubtless be quite helpful.
BTW, has anyone thought about Yugoslavia ? What about them ?
While preliminarily pondering about the survivor states (with the help of NUKEMAP), I've come to the conclusion that some of the best areas to wait out The Exchange are the more sparsely inhabited border regions of Poland and Slovakia. Particularly very rural places like northern Orava, bits of Spiš and most of the northeast. The Polish Tatras have few bigger cities or towns in their vicinity, so they'd be OK. Zakopane will definitely stay standing. A small nuke delivered to the Slovak side of the Tatras would probably send Poprad and its airport to high heaven, but that's about it. The Polish and Slovak tourist resorts wouldn't be targeted, giving survivors and refugees some hope (even though I dread to think how the sudden increase in population will affect the enviroment in the long run). Agriculture in the more mountainous regions would be a doozie. Even if the survivors only used existing meadows and grasslands in the lower portions of the mountain ranges, farming would still be a chore, with the mostly woodland-quality soil supporting only a few hardy crops. The Tatras would probably keep only a token population, with most of the survivor population settling the less elevated parts of the borderlands. Other good places for survival would be the regions of Gemer, bits of Zemplín and Šariš, the less important parts of the lowlands, the mountains in the sparsely inhabited central and especially south central parts of the country. Tiny northern bits of the Záhorie region might survive and join any possible survivor statelets in Moravia. The less populated and industrialized valleys at the geographic boundary of western and central Slovakia could make it too - narrowly, but could. Mining regions, powerplants, airbases and the mettalurgical industry plants would all be destroyed of course. And every major county or district seat and town over 40 000 inhabitants gone. The worse places to be during the Exchange would be : 1.) In the capital or any of the bigger cities 2.) at any of the cities near a major airport or airbase (Kuchyňa, Piešťany, Trenčín, Hričová, Sliač, Prešov and Košice erased out of existence) 3.) in the heavily industrialized parts of the Považie, Ponitrie and Spiš regions 4.) in the whole Košice-Prešov valley 5.) at the two bigger cities of the Liptov region (Liptovský Mikuláš would wave bye-bye, due to its proximity to the national military academy). The northern spine of the national railways would be severely affected, important parts of it cut off permanently due to too high rad levels in some of the most heavily-hit regions it passes through. Though, given time, it would probably be possible to bypass the main route with the regional branches, restoring at least some of the railway infrastructure of the country. Since the last steam engines went out of service in only 1980, any surviving locomotives might be hauled out of the remaining depots and museums and put to work. Unfortunately, there won't be as many of them available as in the UK.
The Czech lands would be hit far harder than Slovakia, Hungary or most of Poland - due to their proximity to the affected German areas and due to the highest density of both population and military targets in all of the western WP states. Even there, there will be areas where survival will be a possibility, but they will be far smaller territories and more isolated from each other. Southern Moravia and larger bits of southern Bohemia could weather the worst quite well, but I'm worried about the winds blowing fallout north of Vienna. Prague and the historical Sudetenland, Czech Silesia and northern Moravia would all be burnt-out hellscapes ("can't leave them with all those working mines and factories, now can we ?"). Again, as with the Slovak half of the republic, every major county seat or town over 40 000 inhabitants would be gone.
A good general idea about what the survivor states could look like a few decades after the war (with the possible exceptions of the bigger rump-Polands) can be seen in DrakonFin's Finnish spinoff. A loose federation of unaffected (and mostly rural) survivor territories that are the nominal successors of the original countries, but have to count on some of the better-off survivors of The Exchange. I wouldn't be surprised if these tiny former WP successors (and maybe a few Austrian survivor statelets) would become natural allies of Switzerland (by far the most unaffected polity in the wider area). Maybe over time, they could form a loose central European alliance of sorts, just to better ensure their mutual survival. I'm positively sure that all bigger river-going ships, airliners or military planes would be utterly destroyed during the Exchange, so that's that for those types of assets.
Terrific. Go for it !
Yeah, I read them already a few months ago, precisely for that reason. Helped fill the gap quite well.
While preliminarily pondering about the survivor states (with the help of NUKEMAP), I've come to the conclusion that some of the best areas to wait out The Exchange are the more sparsely inhabited border regions of Poland and Slovakia. Particularly very rural places like northern Orava, bits of Spiš and most of the northeast. The Polish Tatras have few bigger cities or towns in their vicinity, so they'd be OK. Zakopane will definitely stay standing. A small nuke delivered to the Slovak side of the Tatras would probably send Poprad and its airport to high heaven, but that's about it. The Polish and Slovak tourist resorts wouldn't be targeted, giving survivors and refugees some hope (even though I dread to think how the sudden increase in population will affect the enviroment in the long run). Agriculture in the more mountainous regions would be a doozie. Even if the survivors only used existing meadows and grasslands in the lower portions of the mountain ranges, farming would still be a chore, with the mostly woodland-quality soil supporting only a few hardy crops. The Tatras would probably keep only a token population, with most of the survivor population settling the less elevated parts of the borderlands. Other good places for survival would be the regions of Gemer, bits of Zemplín and Šariš, the less important parts of the lowlands, the mountains in the sparsely inhabited central and especially south central parts of the country. Tiny northern bits of the Záhorie region might survive and join any possible survivor statelets in Moravia. The less populated and industrialized valleys at the geographic boundary of western and central Slovakia could make it too - narrowly, but could. Mining regions, powerplants, airbases and the mettalurgical industry plants would all be destroyed of course. And every major county or district seat and town over 40 000 inhabitants gone. The worse places to be during the Exchange would be : 1.) In the capital or any of the bigger cities 2.) at any of the cities near a major airport or airbase (Kuchyňa, Piešťany, Trenčín, Hričová, Sliač, Prešov and Košice erased out of existence) 3.) in the heavily industrialized parts of the Považie, Ponitrie and Spiš regions 4.) in the whole Košice-Prešov valley 5.) at the two bigger cities of the Liptov region (Liptovský Mikuláš would wave bye-bye, due to its proximity to the national military academy). The northern spine of the national railways would be severely affected, important parts of it cut off permanently due to too high rad levels in some of the most heavily-hit regions it passes through. Though, given time, it would probably be possible to bypass the main route with the regional branches, restoring at least some of the railway infrastructure of the country. Since the last steam engines went out of service in only 1980, any surviving locomotives might be hauled out of the remaining depots and museums and put to work. Unfortunately, there won't be as many of them available as in the UK.
The Czech lands would be hit far harder than Slovakia, Hungary or most of Poland - due to their proximity to the affected German areas and due to the highest density of both population and military targets in all of the western WP states. Even there, there will be areas where survival will be a possibility, but they will be far smaller territories and more isolated from each other. Southern Moravia and larger bits of southern Bohemia could weather the worst quite well, but I'm worried about the winds blowing fallout north of Vienna.
Prague and the historical Sudetenland, Czech Silesia and northern Moravia would all be burnt-out hellscapes ("can't leave them with all those working mines and factories, now can we ?"). Again, as with the Slovak half of the republic, every major county seat or town over 40 000 inhabitants would be gone.A good general idea about what the survivor states could look like a few decades after the war (with the possible exceptions of the bigger rump-Polands) can be seen in DrakonFin's Finnish spinoff. A loose federation of unaffected (and mostly rural) survivor territories that are the nominal successors of the original countries, but have to count on some of the better-off survivors of The Exchange. I wouldn't be surprised if these tiny former WP successors (and maybe a few Austrian survivor statelets) would become natural allies of Switzerland (by far the most unaffected polity in the wider area). Maybe over time, they could form a loose central European alliance of sorts, just to better ensure their mutual survival. I'm positively sure that all bigger river-going ships, airliners or military planes would be utterly destroyed during the Exchange, so that's that for those types of assets.
Terrific. Go for it !
Yeah, I read them already a few months ago, precisely for that reason. Helped fill the gap quite well.
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In this timeline Yugoslavia is said to have sided with the Soviet Union so NATO would surely have updated its target list to include targets here.Post war it probably collapsed just like in real life with the added problems of nuclear strikes famine fallout etc.So basically the yugoslav wars but worse.
You have three Soviet airmen on the run in Nebraska who are praying to someone Marxists don't believe in that they aren't found.
BTW, has anyone thought about Yugoslavia ? What about them ?
- snip -
The Czech lands would be hit far harder than Slovakia, Hungary or most of Poland - due to their proximity to the affected German areas and due to the highest density of both population and military targets in all of the western WP states. Even there, there will be areas where survival will be a possibility, but they will be far smaller territories and more isolated from each other. Southern Moravia and larger bits of southern Bohemia could weather the worst quite well, but I'm worried about the winds blowing fallout north of Vienna.
A good general idea about what the survivor states could look like a few decades after the war (with the possible exceptions of the bigger rump-Polands) can be seen in DrakonFin's Finnish spinoff. A loose federation of unaffected (and mostly rural) survivor territories that are the nominal successors of the original countries, but have to count on some of the better-off survivors of The Exchange I wouldn't be surprised if these tiny former WP successors (and maybe a few Austrian survivor statelets) would become natural allies of Switzerland (by far the most unaffected polity in the wider area). Maybe over time, they could form a loose central European alliance of sorts, just to better ensure their mutual survival. I'm positively sure that all bigger river-going ships, airliners or military planes would be utterly destroyed during the Exchange, so that's that for those types of assets.
Wow, that's really well thought-out. I'm sure your TL will be a good one. I'll be looking forward to reading it sometime.
I forget, did they escape or were they never caught in the first place?
In either case, it sucks for them but their days are probably numbered, as are those of any Americans planewrecked in Russia.
You have three Soviet airmen on the run in Nebraska who are praying to someone Marxists don't believe in that they aren't found.
I have a severely injured hip, leg, and a concussion. This means lots of time for some good ol' P&S!
I generally agree with that assessment. I imagine especially Poland, Hungary and Romania to be places where Red Army soldiers might even only survive by relying on being armed heavily. In occupied territory, I am not sure - West-Germans might generally be little inclined to take additional risks to their lives unless their occupiers are stupid enough to drive them into a "really nothing left to lose"-situation. I am inclined to think that the occupiers I mentioned in the "Swiss report", i.e. in Munich and Schleswig-Holstein, are smart enough to encourage the survivors to co-operate. The American dud on the Marienplatz should do wonders to shake the alignment to the US, at least if you live next to it...
I think that Communism is not the defining factor here, except as a figleaf for pillage and confiscation. They never got that far with 5-year-plans, now you don't get anywhere with them. The way people are ruled is defined by evilness and/or desparation.
I say that is rather a matter of time. While a centralized government is hardly possible, I doubt that the notion of a Polish nation is gone and out of sheer necessity, the communities of Polish survivors will co-ordinate as much as possible; economically and politically. Of course they cannot organize a "Republic of Poland" in 1984 or 85. But as soon as people have found out what their new geography is, they will find their ways.
To a certain degree, yes. But it will not be a game of RISK. Wherever there are functioning "red" occupation authorities, there is a big STOP sign. Plus, there are at least two nations strong enough that they can and IMHO will hinder the other from expanding wildly and unchecked, i.e. France and Britain - add to that balance of power the smaller weights of Sweden and Switzerland. It won't be before long, before their surviving (or newly recruited) diplomats have things to concern themselves with.
Thank you!
Yeah, I read them already a few months ago, precisely for that reason. Helped fill the gap quite well.
And thank you, also. I look forward to your ideas about the CSS(?)R... That would be quite an isolated place, esp. in Slovakia, but maybe one with potential!