When did the Western Roman Empire technically end?

When did the Western Roman Empire technically end?

  • When Ovida was killed by Odoacer and Dalmatia annexed, December 9th 480

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    80
1 – this was the last time a man who was not someone’s puppet was emperor in the west

2 – this is the last time an Emperor who actually had control over policy ruled over Italy

3 – this is commonly accepted to be the end; it is the last time a person claiming to be western emperor “reigned” in Italy

4 – if we accept that Romulus Augustulus was the last ‘real’ emperor, then the only one who could accept his resignation was his senior colleague in the east. The problem with this is that Zeno clearly stated that Julius Nepos is still western emperor, a fact which both Odoacer and the Senate acknowledged. Both Romulus Augustulus and Nepos (whilst in exile) had their face on the official coins and both had exactly the same influence on policy in Italy, i.e. none. The only difference was where they lived, but Roman Emperor had lived outside Italy on many occasions up until this point, so that’s a none issue

5 – as said, Nepos in Diocletian’s palace near Salona was as much of an Emperor of the west between 476-480 as Romulus Augustulus was in his chambers in Ravenna in 475-476. It should follow that his death would mark the end of the western empire. The problem is that there had been instances before when for a time there was no Emperor – those were resolved by someone with authority (Senate & magister militum in the west; eastern emperor; etc) nominating a successor.

6 – legally, this is I think the moment it may have ended, given the reasoning above; I am however inclined to be persuaded otherwise

7 – this is when Nepos’ rump state was incorporated in Odoacers realm and the officers who controled it defeated . I don’t really see this as important, but Ovida was a successor of sorts to Nepos

8 – the last territory of note in the west to be ruled by a Roman; technically, Syagrius had been under Nepos' rule and, as the last Roman leader of (somewhat) Roman field armies, he had the possibility of declaring himself emperor (or having his troops acclaim him as such) if he had wished
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I was torn between 1 and 8.

Arguably 1 was when the Spirit of the Empire was complete broken and the institutions were little more than a facade.

I went with 8 however, because if Syagrius could have restored a Roman Realm, it had every chance at revitalising the Spirit/Character of the Roman Empire. With there being no state of the Romans in the West, then that spirit finally died.

#Philosophy :p
 
I'm not sure the 'Western Roman Empire' (as opposed to the Roman Empire, which could have a number of emperors with different remits) ever technically existed, so the question may not really have an answer.

Effectively, I would argue the deposition of Romulus Augustulus, because emperors could be puppetised or deposed, but here, the symbolic decision was made to abandon the emperorship as a political concept. There would still be an emperor, but not one in Italy. That comes closest, to my mind.
 
I'm not sure the 'Western Roman Empire' (as opposed to the Roman Empire, which could have a number of emperors with different remits) ever technically existed, so the question may not really have an answer.

Effectively, I would argue the deposition of Romulus Augustulus, because emperors could be puppetised or deposed, but here, the symbolic decision was made to abandon the emperorship as a political concept. There would still be an emperor, but not one in Italy. That comes closest, to my mind.

Right.

Giving up your claims De Jure is a cataclysmic step that could never have been reversed. Though largely symbolic at that point, it forever negated his descendants future claims to the imperial throne.
 
Right.

Giving up your claims De Jure is a cataclysmic step that could never have been reversed. Though largely symbolic at that point, it forever negated his descendants future claims to the imperial throne.

Well said, sir! Of course, I agree and voted for 476.

I'm glad the OP didn't ask "When did the Roman Empire technically end?" Because that would have started another debate on this board which always degenerates into a lawyers picnic.
 
Effectively, I would argue the deposition of Romulus Augustulus, because emperors could be puppetised or deposed, but here, the symbolic decision was made to abandon the emperorship as a political concept. There would still be an emperor, but not one in Italy. That comes closest, to my mind.

Giving up your claims De Jure is a cataclysmic step that could never have been reversed. Though largely symbolic at that point, it forever negated his descendants future claims to the imperial throne.

I would argue that Odoacer and the Senate didn't abandon the Emperorship. They accepted that it would continue and that Nepos was the man for the job.


to joke a little:

Odoacer: Romulus, I just killed your father and uncle and my army is right outside. There is no one who can help you. Do you resign?
Augustulus: Yes I do. Please don't kill me.
Odoacer: Hey Senate, go tell Zeno that he can be the Grand Poobah of everything if he leaves us alone. Also, I promise to both not kill you AND let you run most of the country for me. Deal?
Senate: Deal.
...
Senate: Hey Zeno, would you mind being sole Augustus, letting Odoacer be the boss around here, and stop sending your guys over?
Zeno: No! Julius Nepos is still your boss. If you accept that, I won't be forced to come down there myself.
Senate & Odoacer: Ok, ok, Nepos is our boss. Whatever. Look, we can even put his stupid face on the coins we mint and his name on the documents we issue and everything. Just do your thing and let us do ours.
Zeno: Ok, works for me
 
Well said, sir! Of course, I agree and voted for 476.

I'm glad the OP didn't ask "When did the Roman Empire technically end?" Because that would have started another debate on this board which always degenerates into a lawyers picnic.

What debate? Everyone knows it ended in 1453 when Constantinople was conquered? Or was that 1204 when Constantinople was conquered? How about when Morea was occupied by the Ottomans? Sorry, I meant Trebizond. No, it was when the last Sultan was deposed, right?
 
Other. San Marino was founded as a monastic community in 301 AD, in land that was part of the Roman Empire. Thus San Marino was originally under Roman sovereignty. It's been a stable republic ever since then, maintaining its independent political status.

Today San Marino is an independent sovereign state. If it was part of Roman lands then, it's part of Roman lands now.

So the Western Roman Empire still lives. :p
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Other. San Marino was founded as a monastic community in 301 AD, in land that was part of the Roman Empire. Thus San Marino was originally under Roman sovereignty. It's been a stable republic ever since then, maintaining its independent political status.

Today San Marino is an independent sovereign state. If it was part of Roman lands then, it's part of Roman lands now.

So the Western Roman Empire still lives. :p

The Roman Movement begins, petitioning to unite Vatican City, San Marino, and invite other regions to rejoin the Empire.

Special Approval Granted to Constantinople/Istanbul within the Golden Horn!
 
Well said, sir! Of course, I agree and voted for 476.

I'm glad the OP didn't ask "When did the Roman Empire technically end?" Because that would have started another debate on this board which always degenerates into a lawyers picnic.

Thx.

I actually argue if he didn't take this step, (though it's asb to consider he wouldnt), we'd might still have legit blood claimants to Imperial Throne hanging around until at least the high middle ages.

Possibly coalescing into a line of Pope's.

Unless of course Charlamenge hunts them all down :rolleyes:
 
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8 – the last territory of note in the west to be ruled by a Roman; technically, Syagrius had been under Nepos' rule and, as the last Roman leader of (somewhat) Roman field armies, he had the possibility of declaring himself emperor (or having his troops acclaim him as such) if he had wished

Syagrius probably didn't ruled all of Northern Gaul, as it's stil depicted in several maps. The whole demesne is mostly an historiographical attempt to "fill" the void in the region, that was comparable to what existed in Ebre's basin in Spain.

As some local Gallo/Hispano-Roman rulers, more or less independent with maybe some domination but essentially local : in clear, Syagrius may have ruled only around Soissons, or at best up to Seine. That's not exactly a territory "of note" when it's that limited in size and power.

If we accept Syagrius as a likely choice, and really I don't think it is, then we should name Riothamus/Aurelianus, Sidonius Apollinaris or Vincentus (to name only most famous)

It's interesting to note that Franks ruled over Roman field armies as well : composition of Syagrius and Clovis' armies must not have been that distinct, and the latter had the legitimacy for him (being acknowledged by imperial and provincial elites on Belgica, when Syagrius' power was a more moot question) : eventually separating wholly Gallo-Romans from Franks even at this point makes not that much sense.

Making him (or any other Gallo-Roman or Hispano-Roman) a legit successor for imperium (and I'm not even talking about the plausibility of enforcing such a claim), is mostly wishful thinking and historiographical artificiality to me.

Anyway...

The end of the Roman Empire in the West is essentially an historiographical point, but...sending the imperial insignias in Constantinople in 476, formally pointing a senatorial will to "unify the empire" by foreclosing its western avatar, is to me as good as one could get.
 
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Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Western Empire ended in 1806.

Why?

Because, though there was no emperor in the west between 476 and 800, Byzantium finally accepted Charlemagne as Emperor of the Romans.

And the HRE didn't fall until 1806.

(I know I voted for 476).
 
What debate? Everyone knows it ended in 1453 when Constantinople was conquered? Or was that 1204 when Constantinople was conquered? How about when Morea was occupied by the Ottomans? Sorry, I meant Trebizond. No, it was when the last Sultan was deposed, right?

You have it all wrong, it was when the Tsars were deposed during the Russian Revolution. :p
 
It ended when the Normans drove the Romans from Italy in the 11th century. That was the last time the Roman Empire had control of some of its Western lands.
 
Well are we talking about Western Rome or the Empire. Britain still exists, but the British Empire is long gone. However with Rome having an Emperor it's a bit harder to tell if you mean an empire or the state.
 
Because, though there was no emperor in the west between 476 and 800, Byzantium finally accepted Charlemagne as Emperor of the Romans.

This idea NEEDS to die painfully and slowly, because it get repeted over and over and over again without the slightest historical basis, only to lead to semi-pedantic "Roman Empire disappeared because of Napoleon, ho-ho-ho".

Charlemagne NEVER claimed the Imperium over Romans, Frankish emperors almost never did so (at the exception of ONE diplomatical boast).

Titles used, besides kingship over Franks or Lombards, were either

- "Emperor ruling over the Roman Empire" (and that's only for Charlemagne)
- "Emperor"
- "August Emperor"

Politically-wise, the Carolingian imperial title seems to have been somewhat loosely tied with romanity, and certainly still co-existing to the Frankish kingship titles. And this romanity was more about legitimacy from "roman people" as in of the CITY of Rome, whom the bishop was the giver of imperial legitimacy.
What mattered most, was the concept of imperium over Christians, NOT Romania, that was assumed (even by Carolingian authors) to belongs to the emperor in Constantinople (and these certainly didn't acknowledged him as a Roman Emperor, but as an emperor, short of precision)

The very idea that you'd have a direct continuity between WRE and Carolingia, and between Carolingia and medieval HRE is, and I think every word of it, indulging within medieval/modern historiography without any regard for historical sources.
We could as well argue of the divine rights of kings, for what matter plausibility and a-historicity of the concept.
 
Anyway...

The end of the Roman Empire in the West is essentially an historiographical point, but...sending the imperial insignias in Constantinople in 476, formally pointing a senatorial will to "unify the empire" by foreclosing its western avatar, is to me as good as one could get.

Yes, the Senate wanted Zeno to be sole Augustus. The Senate were promptly told to stuff it and fuck off, and accept Nepos as Emperor, which they did. If Romulus Augustulus can be considered emperor by virtue of having recognition by the Senate, Italian field armies and having his face on coins and name on documents, then Julius Nepos should be considered one as well IMO.
 
Emperor of the west was in principle and practice derived from the Senate and people of Rome.

While the HREs until Charles V had a tenuous claim at times, they did have a claim to recognition from the SPQR, which makes them Emperor of Rome.

Whether that's enough to call it the Western Roman Empire is anyone's guess.
 
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