What would you like to see in a 20th century cultural ATL?

[The Admiral Hook]

The 1930s would be best. There could be a whole civil rights movement for people who are "mostly white" which might lead to a subculture phenomenon. The Great Depression might serve as a good catalyst for a quadroon civil rights movement.

I'll consider this, it's doable and very interesting...

Well that's the thing, LOTR isn't Sword and Sorcery, it's high fantasy, it's not Howard's style, there isn't a massive dark lord, there's one hero and his adventures, wizards tend to be truly evil people that traffic with dark forces rather than benevolent forces of good. Rather than a creature being a demon or a supernatural force it's more likely to be a primitive beast or one that time has forgotten about.

I was thinking that the popularity of high fantasy is a huge attraction towards fans discovering and appreciating SaS. Maybe some sort of in between or hybrid of both could serve to increase the vitality and popularity of both.

I'm also considering ways to make Sword and Planet a little more legitimate and a lot more popular... What do you think of that?

Have Metal Slug become as popular as Super Mario

I'm considering ways to make Super Mario more combat oriented from the get-go. What do you think of that?

China stays controlled by the nationalists, and therefore it exports technology and culture like what Japan does. How would Chinese anime compare. How would be different than Japanese anime. Would Gundam still exist? Stuff like that...




That's not too far from OTL. Remember late 1940s subcultures in the USSR included things like 'Stilyagi' which were very influenced by Jazz culture. There were black communist jazz musicians, so having them transported into the USSR is not too hard to see done.

Or have native Africans do the Jazz making due to their student times in the USSR, some stay and network with blacks in the USA and Brazil who were in comunist movements, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilyaga



There are remnants of the 'Creole' culture in Louisiana, esp in New Orleans. But it died out as people saw that as well....uncle tom bullshit.

There were remnants of that 'paper bag bullshit' until the 1960s and apparently informal discrimination does not die
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_Bag_Party

For a stronger Mullatto population that identifies as such in the USA, either A. import/increase immigration of those types of people from Brazil, Puerto Rico or the Dominician Republic. Maybe in Miami the 'white' latinoes leave the city in the hands of mullatto latinos.

Or just make the placage practice and culture stronger in the [english-settled] south than it was OTL. Or some actions to preserve Creole culture in New Orleans to a stronger point.

There are still arguments and apparently some girls get into fights over skin color, as well as some self-segregation over skin color in OTL black america but it tends to be so low that foreigners dont notice it unless they're experienced in that field.



Neil Tyson gets more popular

Or just that Afrofuturism becomes more popular.

Or just that that rumored 'black star wars' film comes out, OR Lucas makes ESB more black-oriented.

OR a black dude makes a successful blackxploitation science fiction IN SPACE!!!!

1. I'm not that into anime so it's hard for me to scramble my own interest. However, I can do some searching and figure out a Chinese version if it's important to you. It may turn out to be interesting.

2. Personally, I'm more interested in the Swingjugend movement in Germany, but maybe there's some way to incorporate Afrocommunism into that movement and export it post war. It can't be too difficult...

3. I'm thinking of just making more quadroons, etc. popular to the point of being iconic. This helps the subculture develop around these people as their idols and ensures a subculture that can grow and evolve from that point.

4. That black Star Wars was a hoax to promote a mockumentary. However, a more popular Afrofuturism is absolutely possible and I think I may go with this. Perhaps even tying it to the quadroon subculture... Nice...

Einstein does not write a letter to FDR. the Manhattan Project never happens. The war goes on per OTL, without Money spent on it, US produces more & better Armour, earlier & better jets, etc. Anzio goes better, D-Day better, etc. Success is so great that border between American and Soviet partition of Germany is at Eastern Suburbs of Berlin, with Germany basically Surrendering to Patton.
Alternative plan made for Japan created based on destruction of Japanese Army in Asia based upon better & quicker success in Europe. VE-Day December 1944.
Joint (and rival) US/ USSR operations in Asia in 1945-46. By end of 1947 Japanese Army defeated in Asia, with USSR controlling Korea, Manchuria, most of China. US/ GB controlling Southern China, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc. Japanese Islands blockaded, crops burned prior to harvest for two years, most fishing boats sunk, Japan starving. USSR manages to invade Northern Japanese Islands & have success. 1948, Japan Surrenders rest of itself to US to avoid USSR occupation, return of Japanese Communists, and near certain death of their Emperor.

Now the Cultural effects:
US never creates plan to disperse population to ensure survival due to Soviet A-Bomb, as their is neither a US or Soviet A-Bomb built.
Soviet Empire overextended and becoming mired in Asian & Eastern European conflicts.
US does not finance Marshal Plan, instead works on rebuilding its neglected infrastructure.
Eisenhower not elected to Presidency as not interested in further service after significantly longer WW2.
US Railroads rebuilt during late war years, and initial post war period. No US Interstate built. And with no Federal Subsidies for US Airports & Airlines, Passenger Rail profitable. Success of Railroads due to their ability to compete on a truly "level playing field" creates a model of how to avoid unfair competition.
With no Federal subsidies for Suburban Hospitals, Schools, Roads, etc. US cities are rebuilt rather than abandoned after years of neglect during war years.
Television languishes as the Federal Government refuses to subsidize it either, especially as Movie Companies flex their economic muscles.
Returning GIs stay in their old neighbourhoods and improve them. US cities become the best in the World. Europe and Japan languish and USSR is ignored as US again turns inward. Communism respected, not feared, but often pitied as lack of success by Soviets on capitalizing on their WW2 success.
Japan never becomes modern powerhouse as never allowed to put protectionist policies in place to protect domestic manufactures, especially automobiles, and are never given easy access to US markets as they had before WW2. And has a lot of neighbours that hate it, especially the Chinese and Koreans who are also unlikely to buy from Japan because of this and because they are Communists and focus instead on the USSR and self sufficiency.
Germany having not eliminated so many enemies during the Holocaust finds itself living with them, not part of NATO as their is no NATO, and not given anything free. No reparations, this time, but no help either. Germany is slowly rebuilding. Eastern Germany is lost to Germany as most Germans having left unless they are Communists as Soviets not interested in trying to keep them in their zone, which becomes the German SSR.
Israel never founded in middle east, but instead a Jewish SSR created in what was Eastern Germany, west of the Polish SSR.
There is no Korean War, No Vietnamese War, etc. No victors threaten each other, and there is no cold war.
1988 marks the 40th anniversary of the victory of the Allies in WW2. Veterans travel from across the US to Washington by train for the big celebration and the unveiling of new WW2 monument. The Soviets send a delegation. The Cameras of the Newsreels, in Colour film it all.

While this is massively cool and well thought out, the hordes of butterflies would make the other, later ideas I've gotten totally impractical so I'll leave this one to you...

An economic depression from the 50's to the early 60's kills the 'youth' culture.

No Hippies (who were mostly spoiled middle class brats), no drop out and chill out. Just people struggling to find a job and support their families.

Songs are about cheer up. Movies are more lavish musicals and agressive cop and killer style.

Western culture is grittier and more hard nosed.

I'm working on killing (or significantly altering) the hippie culture without a severe economic depression.

However, Western culture being more gritty is happening. Thanks.

My main thought here: make Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest (and from there, the entire genre of console RPGs) as popular in North America as they were in Japan, to the point that every game released in Japan came to the US on the same console. In other words, Final Fantasy II and III would be the appropriate Famicom games, rather than renamed versions of IV and VI, though I wouldn't worry about trying to get Dragon Quest so popular that they have to release it on a weekend due to the number of people skipping school and work to buy it. That's a bit far fetched even for me.

Also, some sports cultural differences: the Federal League survives as the third league of Major League Baseball. Possible PoD here: Kenesaw Mountain Landis either rules for the FL sooner, or his attempt to get them to negotiate with the AL and NL goes better, and they fold in the Federal League.

Have the NHL nearly as popular in the US as in Canada. Not on the level of being the national sport, but strong enough that nobody questions the NHL's status as a major sport.

Make the ABA more successful, such that eight teams survive the merger instead of four, and the NBA does not dictate harsh terms for entry (specifically, no dispersal draft, significantly lesser relocation fees, and the TV money would be shared equitably.)

Have the USFL succeed in their plan to force a merger between them and the NFL.

1. I'm not educated enough on the subject of console RPGs to truly understand what you're referring to, but would like to throw it in if you could elaborate.

2. I know so little about everything sports-related you are talking about that it's going to take some serious googling to figure out how to incorporate it. However, I like the idea of having some sports related divergences and want some more input.

I know a little about the ABA and would like to see it survive, however, isn't part of what's cool about the ABA the fact that it's a museum piece in America's collective cultural memory?

This merger between the NFL and the USFL, so... football on the off season? I need some more bait to bite. Again, elaborate?

Good input, though. Very surprsing and original suggestions.

Hitler does not become chancellor in January 1933 and Weimar Germany struggles on, finally recovering from the depression by the mid to late 1930ies. Thus there is no exodus of jewish, liberal and progressive artists, musicians, actors and directors from Germany. Even Marlene Dietrich decides to return to a democratic Germany after several of her Hollywood movies fail to have the expected success in the late 1930ies. Thus the German motion picture industry stays on par with Hollywood and continues to produce movies that are both economically successful and appreciated by movie critics worldwide. The Berlin Film Festival becomes one of the most important film festivals worldwide and to win one of the Golden Lions is equally important for a motion picture as to win one or several Oscar Academy Awards. The Babelsberg Film Studios on the outskirts of Berlin have become famous enough by the end of the century, that Indian motion pictures are called Bombayberg movies.

Very. F*cking. Cool. However, again, Butterfly Horde. I'm not sure I could do a cultural history including everything else I want to incorporate with such a vastly different world without using several "Turtledovian stretches" as analogs to OTL for decades.

I'll consider it, but I think this needs to be its own TL proper.

-No counter culture movement, ever.
-Big band and Jazz stay popular.
-Tailfins stay a popular feature on cars.

1. Sorry, I'm going to include some counter cultures, but they'll be different, of course.

2. Big band and jazz will remain popular but they will have to incorporate themselves into the rock 'n' roll movement a little bit to ensure their survival. Something like a BSO revival but in the late fifties/early sixties.

3. You got it. Tailfins were bitchin'. I'm thinking of a way for them to remain popular. Any ideas?

I would like to see baseball keep the level of cultural interest it had in the 50s/60s through today. The World Series is hardly watched compared to the Super Bowl or NBA Championship; an increased interest would likely result from a shorter schedule, no expansion in the 90s, contraction in the early 00's, less of a local blackout policy on television, and an increase in "tricky" pitches (slurve, gyroball, knuckleball, etc.) leading to more of a contact game. Also a bit ASB, but less steroids and less innings.

I would like to see, if possible, more "realistic" superheroes (a la Batman). Perhaps post-WW2 and in Vietnam, readers clamor for more heroes that can relate to their issues? I don't know.

Another thing I would personally like to see is the continuance of true country music as opposed to the country pop out there today. Perhaps keep Elvis closer to his roots and/or eliminate the "mainstream" feel of country via some incident in the 70s/80s that causes the public at large to view country as more "backwoods-ish". This may eliminate it from the national consciousness but will keep Taylor Swift and Lady Antebellum and their ilk from ruining a perfectly good brand.

1. Baseball does deserve more attention and making it more contact seems like a good way to do this (this IS America, after all...)

2. More realistic superheroes? Hmm... I may be able to make the more realistic ones more popular for you.

3. Country music is tricky. There were so many artists trying to keep it pure and so much demand for it to go pop. And, after all, the music industry is much more interested in the desires of "demand" than it is in the opinions of its "supply". It's possible to allow country to go pop and still retain a great deal of its integrity with other artists by keeping the two divided and legitimate. Sort of like "hot" and "sweet" jazz. Two separate genres controlled by the same machine.

Well we are making strange requests
*Have Oswald the Lucky Rabbit take the place of Mickey Mouse.
*Have Shirley Temple star in Wizard of Oz as Dorthy continuing her career as an actress.
*Make Cowboy Sahib an popular comic book character. Info.

1. A surviving Oswald the Lucky Rabbit is a great idea. I've also often wondered about combining the Mickey Mouse thing with the Bugs Bunny thing, having Disney hire the developers of the latter instead of Warner Bros. and having a Disney Looney Tunes launch the careers of the LT animators.

Just a thought...

2. Shirley Temple as Dorothy has come up here before. The film might be taken a little less seriously initially as Temple was known for more "kiddy" sorts of roles. I'll think about it...

3. Cowboy Sahib... dear God... How?

¡ Hi ! about strange requests:

1.-A LOTR Beatle´s movies succesfully trilogy version.

2.-Football/soccer as a 3 USA´S national´s sport.

3.-Issac Asimov´s Fundation´s succesfully movies.

4.-Atari as the big advanced videogames master.

5.-Shawnna Twain ( the country singer) in Basic Instints.

6.-Harry Potter books doomed and THE NEVERENDING STORY to going to the skies in popularity, movies, t.v. shows, etc...

Peace.

1. Not going to happen, sadly. However, I do have plans for both LOTR and the Beatles. I will not disappoint.

2. Probably not possible. Maybe incorporating a little bit more rugby into American Football early on... but even that is pushing it.

3. I'm sorry, I don't understand this sentence. If you mean films based on Asimov's works becoming more popular then, I can work with that. (Gosh, there are a lot of people wanting sci-fi/fantasy to be outrageously more popular... )

4. Possibly an Atari merger... That would be pretty cool.

5. Absolutely not. Hahaha

6. Hmmm... the Neverending Story did about as well as it could IMO, but never fear, I don;t mind destroying Harry Potter.

With the video game industry, I think a Sega-Nintendo-Apple Big Three would be cool. We even came up with some cool names for their systems in one thread (Hyperion for Sega, Kalliste for Apple).

Musically, a big band/jazz revival in the late 70s, early 80s (Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa style, baby ). Probably too late to do with the original big band/jazz stars, but maybe a directly inspired type thing (ala Clapton and the others spreading the gospel of Robert Johnson IOTL ). And if PODs allow I'd like to see something where Kurt Cobain and Shaun Morgan work together on something.

In film, Harrison Ford and Michael Beihn both being (and staying) big sci-fi action stars. Maybe also have George Lucas continue on his trend from THX-1138 and making some darker sci-fi than OTLs Star Wars (not that I have anything against light-hearted sci-fi, it would just be a cool alternative to see in a TL). Also Ridley Scott should be like 100x more famous, he's awesome. James Cameron's film career should end in the early 90s. Also, Alien 3 and 4 should be avoided, unless they're bringing someone like Ridley Scott back.

Hope that helps.

1. That is cool. I was thinking about Jobs and Gates not splitting and Nintendo being bigger, making Apple and Nintendo the biggest competitors on the market. Sega slipped my mind... Can you link to that discussion?

2. You know of my passion for Rich and Krupa... Curse you for manipulating me! A swing revival before Setzer seems difficult, and one at the zenith of punk is going to be hard to make seem "cool" to the disillusioned youth... Unless...

Swingpunk? Holy shit...

Cobain working with Stipe is one idea that has been captivating me. Never heard any ideas as to how this would sound. Never been a Seether fan, myself...

3. All of your film ideas are great. I'll consider how to use this. You've got excellent taste in film.

Some "HIGH CULTURE" requests, mostly Amerocentric:
1. The Armory Show gets sympathetic newspaper coverage, leading to earlier and easier popularity of modern art in America. This could have interesting butterflies.
2. Walter Benjamin survives the war and doesn't lose his suitcase. I'd like to see what was in there and also see what he does with the Arcades Project.
3. More experimental film, esp. in the US.
4.Le Corbusier dismisses his Radiant City as one of those "Damn, how high did I get last night?" ideas before he can write about it.

1. This IS very interesting. I'll be considering this.

2. Walter Benjamin forced me to do some googling. Seems like an infinitely interesting character with some fascinating ideas and shame on me for being ignorant of him previously. Not sure how I would do this or where to start finishing his life from what little I know about him. I'm requesting some elaboration and direction towards source material, (if for no other reason than my own curiosity.)

3. Done.

4. I'm not sure this changes much. Wasn't an idea that went pretty much nowhere?

Good requests. Way out of left field on this one, cousin.

YES! SWING UNTIL YOU CAN'T SWING NO MORE!

What I would want...

1. No rap.

2. More Star Wars movies, TV shows about the Yuuzhan Vong invasions and the Old Republic.

3. Modern art falls down an elevator shaft onto some bullets.

4. Revival of Renaissance/Medieval styles of art, don't ask why, just because.

5. 30's and 40's fashions stay in vogue well beyond their years.

6. Keep around 80's pop styles.

7. The proper sort of journalist stays on television, that means no big-titted anchors and "show faces" with a great appearance but no real personality.

8. Keep our dear lovely Fairness Doctrine around.

9. Hit the Hayes Comic Code with a shovel... then hit it again.

10. CGI animation not as widespread, hand-drawn remains popular.

1. How about more musical rap which deserves and receives more legitimate and positive attention?

2. Sure thing. Sounds good to me.

3. Modern Art being increased in popularity in one comment and then its murder in the next. What's a boy to do?

4. This could be possible. I won't ask why.

5. Which fashions? As far as I know, they didn't decrease much and were constantly revived and celebrated in the following decades.

6. 80's pop styles are back, baby. Musically at least. There's such a massive 80'sphilia in indie music and even electronic pop music that I'm not sure you really want it to stay around and stagnate, as it would lose its novelty and prevent a revival.

7. I like this a lot. I'm going to figure this one out.

8. ASB! Well, maybe not. Maybe the addition of another mainstream news network whose legitimacy and integrity (as well as high ratings) makes it an example to the alphabet networks... hmmm...

9. I want this too. I'm not sure how to go about it. It seems like almost an inevitability at the time.

10. Hand drawn is still pretty popular. Watch some Adult Swim or Fox on Sundays or TBS during the day. Maybe a less stylized CG, or CG to augment or better emulate hand drawn?

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR REQUESTS/COMMENTS! Some really great and original ideas to add to my own and prevent this TL from being a my-fantasy-20th-century-wank.

Seriously, thanks all.

 

[Koxinga]

more Asian or Asian American popular culture; alternate histories involving diasporic settlement in unusual places (non-American California; A Chinese Australia; a Japanese Siberia...), particularly ones with admixture and intermarriage where there is a lot of interaction.

I find TLs of this sort don't go far enough in portraying the innovation and dynamism of these kinds of (hypothetical) communities

 

[The Admiral Hook]

more Asian or Asian American popular culture; alternate histories involving diasporic settlement in unusual places (non-American California; A Chinese Australia; a Japanese Siberia...), particularly ones with admixture and intermarriage where there is a lot of interaction.

I find TLs of this sort don't go far enough in portraying the innovation and dynamism of these kinds of (hypothetical) communities

More as in more than just Katamari and DDR loving white kids pretending to be "AZN"?

This definitely can be done and without much work. There was a thread recently about Kurosawa doing Westerns and replacing the Spaghettis. I proposed a question about hybrid Rice/Spaghettis with Bruce Lee surviving to become the Eastern Western icon of the century - and then (AFAIK) the thread died out...

...however my curiosity into this concept did not. If blaxploitation and Kung Fu could cross paths time and time again in the seventies, it seems unlikely that it is implausible for them to be united under some sort of Ricespaghetti Western monster and then you've got yourself a massive movie subgenre that appeals to whites and minorities alike in America. Which in turn makes way for a unified and widely celebrated Asian American culture akin to the Afrocentric culture which emerged OTL. It may be unified with the latter to some degree but this isn't necessarily a negative or a permanent thing.

Did you have any more ideas?

 

[NothingNow]

Different Versions of The Green Hornet, and various Giant Robot series from around the world.
Some sort of mix between a Blaxploitation movie, a Spaghetti Western, a Wuxia flick, and a Hong Kong action movie!
EDIT: Also, Something by *Masamune Shirow being adapted faithfully into a Major Live-Action Science fiction movie.
Also, seconding the Real Journalism thing, and the Dominance of Traditional Animation, (especially if using CG graphics and Digital inking and inbetweening to improve the quality.)
Also, John Delorian, and Le Corbusier don't go full retard, and ruin their reputations with insane ideas, while Gerard K. O'Neill gets a bit more respect in Sci-fi media circles.

 

[Koxinga]

More as in more than just Katamari and DDR loving white kids pretending to be "AZN"?

This definitely can be done and without much work. There was a thread recently about Kurosawa doing Westerns and replacing the Spaghettis. I proposed a question about hybrid Rice/Spaghettis with Bruce Lee surviving to become the Eastern Western icon of the century - and then (AFAIK) the thread died out...

...however my curiosity into this concept did not. If blaxploitation and Kung Fu could cross paths time and time again in the seventies, it seems unlikely that it is implausible for them to be united under some sort of Ricespaghetti Western monster and then you've got yourself a massive movie subgenre that appeals to whites and minorities alike in America. Which in turn makes way for a unified and widely celebrated Asian American culture akin to the Afrocentric culture which emerged OTL. It may be unified with the latter to some degree but this isn't necessarily a negative or a permanent thing.

Did you have any more ideas?

I think it is a lot about power, about racial politics and the hegemonic dynamics at work behind them. I suppose I haven't spent enough time on the board or really looked too deeply into all that has been posted before; I think what I was really looking for is something like the "Tales of the Superpower Empire - Series Archive" that really delves into what life 'is' like in a Chinese-dominated ATL.

Still, there are so many possibilities and of course we are always so limited by what the world we are from is like, it is hard to really conceptualize the Other

 

[DuQuense]

paralleled by something that at least slows down the Rockabilly -> Rock movement

And can we have Big Band last longer? Instead of Rock and Roll, can we have the Big Bands live on? Saving Glenn Miller might help in that.

I was thinking of having Big Bands adapt better with rock 'n' roll. Something like a mid-late fifties and early 1960's BSO. Surviving Glenn Miller would definitely help

.

In 1941 the President of the Musician Union Hired Ben Sevin who had been a Big Band Leader [Ben Sevin & His Orchestra] and who was working as VP at CBS Records to do a Quick survey of the State of Music.
Ben spent a year, Doing Surveys, Interviews, with Musicians, Record producers, Radio directors, and anyone else he could find.
His Quick Survey ended up over 200 pages long.

One of His main Points was -- NO Strike - However the president of the Union called a strike in 1942.
In a War Economy, with Record Shellac a War Material causing limited releases, Rationing of Gas preventing travel to Dance Halls, and other such, It was poor timing.

The aftermath of the Strike accelerated the move to Smaller Groups that provided there own Music, and Vocals.
The Four Man Group -The Ink Spots - Sang in Front of a 20 Piece Band. The Beatles was a Four Man Group that Played their own Instruments, while they sang.

Kill the Strike, and while you don't stop the shift, You do help slow it down.

 

[Nosferatu]

Now granted, I just posted something similar in a thread about alternate literature just minutes before I noticed this one, but it fits better here, actually.

What if Lovecraft's philosophy becomes more popular in the decades after his death? What if this causes the youth culture in America to go the other way, and we get anti-hippies instead of hippies, but in the same time-frame? People in this subculture would be nihilistic, speak and write using archaic English, not use drugs, have streaks of Anglophilia and fascism in their ideology (without being Nazis or skinheads, mind you), and instead of protesting nuclear weapons they would encourage their use. They would also pretend to worship deities like Cthulhu. In a way it would be an interesting anti-thesis to OTL counter culture, on the opposite side of the cynicism-idealism scale.

This would also support this:

"I'm working on killing (or significantly altering) the hippie culture without a severe economic depression.

However, Western culture being more gritty is happening. Thanks."

 

[loneranger]

1. That is cool. I was thinking about Jobs and Gates not splitting and Nintendo being bigger, making Apple and Nintendo the biggest competitors on the market. Sega slipped my mind... Can you link to that discussion?

2. You know of my passion for Rich and Krupa... Curse you for manipulating me! A swing revival before Setzer seems difficult, and one at the zenith of punk is going to be hard to make seem "cool" to the disillusioned youth... Unless...

Swingpunk? Holy shit...

Cobain working with Stipe is one idea that has been captivating me. Never heard any ideas as to how this would sound. Never been a Seether fan, myself...

3. All of your film ideas are great. I'll consider how to use this. You've got excellent taste in film.

1. We talked about it in the 'The Noughties' collab TL. If you're looking for a POD, I don't there was a specific one in there.

2. Jazzpunk has been done IOTL. In fact, a jazzpunk movement in the early 80s would be major bad ass.

With Cobain and Stipe, they were actually planning to IOTL. IIRC, I actually incorporated that into my first TL (Cobain survives). And with Seether, neither am I (well, I know that was your polite version of saying "I fucking hate them", whereas I mean they just aren't in my top tier of favorites). But I recently started listening to them due to the vocal similarities between the two. They sound fucking AWESOME together.

3. Awesome! Thanks

 

[A.M. Turtle]

3. Cowboy Sahib... dear God... How?

He's a fighter pilot ace who dresses like a cowboy and rides tigers. How can he NOT be interesting?

 

[dandaman25]

I have another sports suggestion - a college football playoff. Not one that comes about recently, it would have to happen much earlier in history in order to avoid all the sponsoring/money issues we have today. I would say in the aftermath of the lopsided 1902 Rose Bowl (the first one) and/or possibly in response to the large numbers of injuries in the early 1900s, football doesn't develop a stringent bowl system. In order to keep up interest in the WW2 years, college football follows their basketball counterparts and start up a four-team tournament. In this scenario, I realize there still would be mass interest in some post-season action in the 20s and 30s. You could have some post-season "all-star" match ups or something to keep up interest. It still may be unlikely, but the system has a better chance then than today in my opinion.

 

[reformedcpmuser]

I'd like to see more women heads of government in ATL 20th century. I'd like to see a lot more variety than Margaret Thatcher and Golda Meir. Here are some obvious and not-so-obvious ideas:

* Woman president of the US by the 1970's

* Woman president of the Soviet Union (post-Khrushchev)

* Woman leader of a Warsaw Pact country

* Socialist/Green woman leader of a Western European country

* Pre-Thatcher woman Labour Prime Minister

* Woman "chairman" of the CCP

* Woman African dictator

* Woman Japanese LDP prime minister

Feel free to tack on other possibilities.

 

[Roger II]

1. This IS very interesting. I'll be considering this.

2. Walter Benjamin forced me to do some googling. Seems like an infinitely interesting character with some fascinating ideas and shame on me for being ignorant of him previously. Not sure how I would do this or where to start finishing his life from what little I know about him. I'm requesting some elaboration and direction towards source material, (if for no other reason than my own curiosity.)

3. Done.

4. I'm not sure this changes much. Wasn't an idea that went pretty much nowhere?

2. I'd start by going to his essays-the collection Illuminations has his more famous ones. I'd look at the Theses on History especially (albeit very carefully), since that might provide some ideas for where a surviving Benjamin could go intellectually. As for bios, I don't know since most of what I know of Benjamin is from his writings but I'll ask around about good bios.
4. IIRC, it did a lot to influence postwar urban renewal, and lord knows what'd happen if you heavily modified that program. Postwar renewal programs that de-emphasize high-rise housing and freeways within cities would have a massive effect-certainly we'd see fewer massive dislocations in the US.

 

[The Admiral Hook]

1. Different Versions of The Green Hornet, and various Giant Robot series from around the world.

2. Some sort of mix between a Blaxploitation movie, a Spaghetti Western, a Wuxia flick, and a Hong Kong action movie!

3. EDIT: Also, Something by *Masamune Shirow being adapted faithfully into a Major Live-Action Science fiction movie.

4. Also, seconding the Real Journalism thing, and the Dominance of Traditional Animation, (especially if using CG graphics and Digital inking and inbetweening to improve the quality.)

5. Also, John Delorian, and Le Corbusier don't go full retard, and ruin their reputations with insane ideas, while Gerard K. O'Neill gets a bit more respect in Sci-fi media circles.

(Separated by me for organization...)

1. Green Hornet alternatives would be pretty cool. Giant Robot?

2. I think you already know this is going to happen. Hahaha

3. I'm not familiar with his stuff, really. I've caught some GitS, but I'm not very experienced in manga or anime. I'll look into it and we'll see. Any requests as to what should be turned into a successful film franchise?

4. I'm into both of these ideas and will try to figure out a way to incorporate it.

5. You got it, dude.

I think it is a lot about power, about racial politics and the hegemonic dynamics at work behind them. I suppose I haven't spent enough time on the board or really looked too deeply into all that has been posted before; I think what I was really looking for is something like the "Tales of the Superpower Empire - Series Archive" that really delves into what life 'is' like in a Chinese-dominated ATL.

Still, there are so many possibilities and of course we are always so limited by what the world we are from is like, it is hard to really conceptualize the Other

I'll see what I can do.

In 1941 the President of the Musician Union Hired Ben Sevin who had been a Big Band Leader [Ben Sevin & His Orchestra] and who was working as VP at CBS Records to do a Quick survey of the State of Music.
Ben spent a year, Doing Surveys, Interviews, with Musicians, Record producers, Radio directors, and anyone else he could find.
His Quick Survey ended up over 200 pages long.

One of His main Points was -- NO Strike - However the president of the Union called a strike in 1942.
In a War Economy, with Record Shellac a War Material causing limited releases, Rationing of Gas preventing travel to Dance Halls, and other such, It was poor timing.

The aftermath of the Strike accelerated the move to Smaller Groups that provided there own Music, and Vocals.
The Four Man Group -The Ink Spots - Sang in Front of a 20 Piece Band. The Beatles was a Four Man Group that Played their own Instruments, while they sang.

Kill the Strike, and while you don't stop the shift, You do help slow it down.

Perfect! Good work, I had no idea about this.

Now granted, I just posted something similar in a thread about alternate literature just minutes before I noticed this one, but it fits better here, actually.

What if Lovecraft's philosophy becomes more popular in the decades after his death? What if this causes the youth culture in America to go the other way, and we get anti-hippies instead of hippies, but in the same time-frame? People in this subculture would be nihilistic, speak and write using archaic English, not use drugs, have streaks of Anglophilia and fascism in their ideology (without being Nazis or skinheads, mind you), and instead of protesting nuclear weapons they would encourage their use. They would also pretend to worship deities like Cthulhu. In a way it would be an interesting anti-thesis to OTL counter culture, on the opposite side of the cynicism-idealism scale.

This would also support this:

"I'm working on killing (or significantly altering) the hippie culture without a severe economic depression.

However, Western culture being more gritty is happening. Thanks."

This seems a little far-fetched, but increasing Lovecraft's popularity to the degree that it affects the sixties subculture in any way is not. I'll do it.

1. We talked about it in the 'The Noughties' collab TL. If you're looking for a POD, I don't there was a specific one in there.

2. Jazzpunk has been done IOTL. In fact, a jazzpunk movement in the early 80s would be major bad ass.

With Cobain and Stipe, they were actually planning to IOTL. IIRC, I actually incorporated that into my first TL (Cobain survives). And with Seether, neither am I (well, I know that was your polite version of saying "I fucking hate them", whereas I mean they just aren't in my top tier of favorites). But I recently started listening to them due to the vocal similarities between the two. They sound fucking AWESOME together.

3. Awesome! Thanks

1. Thanks.

2. That is not jazzpunk, it's a part of that nineties ska-influenced pop-punk scene. Swingpunk would be a little different. I'm working on it...

3. Yeah, that's why I brought it up. It was possible. How did their cooperation in your TL go? And on Seether... yeah, you know me too well already. I'll think about it.

He's a fighter pilot ace who dresses like a cowboy and rides tigers. How can he NOT be interesting?

Billy Zane could play him in the movie. That's how.

I have another sports suggestion - a college football playoff. Not one that comes about recently, it would have to happen much earlier in history in order to avoid all the sponsoring/money issues we have today. I would say in the aftermath of the lopsided 1902 Rose Bowl (the first one) and/or possibly in response to the large numbers of injuries in the early 1900s, football doesn't develop a stringent bowl system. In order to keep up interest in the WW2 years, college football follows their basketball counterparts and start up a four-team tournament. In this scenario, I realize there still would be mass interest in some post-season action in the 20s and 30s. You could have some post-season "all-star" match ups or something to keep up interest. It still may be unlikely, but the system has a better chance then than today in my opinion.

I could see this working. I'll consider it!

I'd like to see more women heads of government in ATL 20th century. I'd like to see a lot more variety than Margaret Thatcher and Golda Meir. Here are some obvious and not-so-obvious ideas:

* Woman president of the US by the 1970's

* Woman president of the Soviet Union (post-Khrushchev)

* Woman leader of a Warsaw Pact country

* Socialist/Green woman leader of a Western European country

* Pre-Thatcher woman Labour Prime Minister

* Woman "chairman" of the CCP

* Woman African dictator

* Woman Japanese LDP prime minister

Feel free to tack on other possibilities.

I almost said something very sexist to be funny (and it was hilarious) but thought better against it. I'm growing a filter in my old age.

Anyway, is this an attempt to insert a greater feminist influence on culture or an attempt to dissolve its pertinence or legitimacy? I'm trying to fit all this into something cultural. Elaborate!

2. I'd start by going to his essays-the collection Illuminations has his more famous ones. I'd look at the Theses on History especially (albeit very carefully), since that might provide some ideas for where a surviving Benjamin could go intellectually. As for bios, I don't know since most of what I know of Benjamin is from his writings but I'll ask around about good bios.
4. IIRC, it did a lot to influence postwar urban renewal, and lord knows what'd happen if you heavily modified that program. Postwar renewal programs that de-emphasize high-rise housing and freeways within cities would have a massive effect-certainly we'd see fewer massive dislocations in the US.

Great stuff, cousin! Thanks for the info!

 

[reformedcpmuser]

I'd like to see more women heads of government in ATL 20th century. I'd like to see a lot more variety than Margaret Thatcher and Golda Meir. Here are some obvious and not-so-obvious ideas:

I almost said something very sexist to be funny (and it was hilarious) but thought better against it. I'm growing a filter in my old age.

Anyway, is this an attempt to insert a greater feminist influence on culture or an attempt to dissolve its pertinence or legitimacy? I'm trying to fit all this into something cultural. Elaborate!

I am a "male feminist" in some respects (yeah, I know that sounds strange.) I'd like to see more women heads of government in OTL 21st century. Still, for all the social progress that women had made in the last half of the 20th century, I'm surprised that very few had become heads of government.

What changes to 20th century culture would've been needed to foster more female participation in national governance? What were some of the less-well-known roadblocks to women in government? Even Margaret Thatcher drew some flak in the 1950's and 1960's for raising a family while rising through the Tory ranks. How could women have gained more respect as politicians and professionals first rather than moonlighting housewives?

 

[Orville_third]

Greater influence for Buckminster Fuller and his ideas.

 

[Jhimmibhob]

Carolopolitanus Maximus

In visual arts and architecture, the grip of modernism* on critical and elite sensibilities was nearly total in OTL 20th century--particularly after WWII. At the beginning, there were numerous competing visions ... Art Nouveau, Symbolism, and later Art Deco. But by the postwar period, the competition was over: the disconnect between high art and the elicitation of ordinary kinds of aesthetic pleasure was complete, and the art world's never looked back.

I'm thinking of an ATL where not only Art Deco, but Symbolism and Edwardian/Georgian architecture had heirs. In this line, there would be new works of art that regularly met with critical AND popular approval, and where new buildings by respectable architects are looked forward to outside of the academy.

Modernism wouldn't have vanished, but would not be the only game in town. The implications for city skylines everywhere would be enormous, but particularly in bombed-out WWII theatres and the American Sun Belt.

* I am defining "modernism" VERY broadly--not simply high Modernism, but those artistic movements that consciously broke with hitherto-given Western assumptions about aesthetics (representationalism, ornament, formal continuity, high/low distinctions). This capacious "modernism" would include Cubism, the International movement, Brutalism, Pop art, and movements like Post-Modernism (which defined itself against Modernism while retaining most of the latter's critique of pre-Modernism).

 

[Gosing]

I've always wanted to see a collaboration of Orson Welles and Alfred Hitchcock.

Also, merge Led Zeppelin and the Who. Somehow.

 

[dilbert719]

1. I'm not educated enough on the subject of console RPGs to truly understand what you're referring to, but would like to throw it in if you could elaborate.

2. I know so little about everything sports-related you are talking about that it's going to take some serious googling to figure out how to incorporate it. However, I like the idea of having some sports related divergences and want some more input.

I know a little about the ABA and would like to see it survive, however, isn't part of what's cool about the ABA the fact that it's a museum piece in America's collective cultural memory?

This merger between the NFL and the USFL, so... football on the off season? I need some more bait to bite. Again, elaborate?

Good input, though. Very surprsing and original suggestions.

I'd be glad to elaborate, but it may take me a while to collect enough information to put it all together in a logical fashion. I'll try to do that and bring it back to you in here in a while, but no guarantees.

To elaborate quickly on the USFL, though, the league folded because (among other factors, but this strikes me as one of the two biggest, the other being the outsized spending of most owners with respect to a sustainable revenue stream) Donald Trump was impatient. The league was, as I understand it, considering forcing a merger even before Trump pushed them to move to the fall schedule, but it was never planned to happen that quickly. If they showed more patience, stuck with the spring schedule, developed their way out of the financial situation they were in, and then moved to compete directly only after ensuring the financial stability of their franchises, say in the late 90s instead of the mid 80s, they might have stood a chance at direct competition.

Once they've established their brand of football, secured proper funding, and moved to the fall schedule to compete directly, then they could negotiate a merger on stronger footing. Depending on the timing, the butterflies involved could see the NFL accepting four to six USFL teams, in markets the NFL wasn't already in: New Jersey, Jacksonville, Birmingham, and Memphis would be the four highest average attendances in non-NFL cities (Tampa Bay was up there as well, but the Bucs would never allow it), and if two more franchises made it, it would probably be Oakland or Los Angeles, whichever market Al Davis wasn't in, and Baltimore or Portland. Baltimore had the NFL pedigree in the past, and was a strong team on the field, while Portland had one of the highest average percentages filled, albeit in a very small stadium, in the league.

Of course, this also doesn't take into account future USFL expansion, moves, and mergers, but those are some strong possible teams. Also working under the assumption here that the NFL would have gone to St. Louis sometime, and the USFL wouldn't. That's a franchise that never existed which could have made a strong argument to be part of the USFL merger.

This would likely result in the NFL shooting for a 40 team league by ATL 2011, with additional franchises in Toronto and Mexico City, at least.

 

[loneranger]

Also, merge Led Zeppelin and the Who. Somehow.

Go with the original idea behind Led Zeppelin, which would be Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Keith Moon, and John Entwistle. Then you could get like, Steve Winwood or some shit on vocals. I have no idea how that would sound, but it would be SOOO awesome.

 

[dandaman25]

I'd be glad to elaborate, but it may take me a while to collect enough information to put it all together in a logical fashion. I'll try to do that and bring it back to you in here in a while, but no guarantees.

To elaborate quickly on the USFL, though, the league folded because (among other factors, but this strikes me as one of the two biggest, the other being the outsized spending of most owners with respect to a sustainable revenue stream) Donald Trump was impatient. The league was, as I understand it, considering forcing a merger even before Trump pushed them to move to the fall schedule, but it was never planned to happen that quickly. If they showed more patience, stuck with the spring schedule, developed their way out of the financial situation they were in, and then moved to compete directly only after ensuring the financial stability of their franchises, say in the late 90s instead of the mid 80s, they might have stood a chance at direct competition.

Once they've established their brand of football, secured proper funding, and moved to the fall schedule to compete directly, then they could negotiate a merger on stronger footing. Depending on the timing, the butterflies involved could see the NFL accepting four to six USFL teams, in markets the NFL wasn't already in: New Jersey, Jacksonville, Birmingham, and Memphis would be the four highest average attendances in non-NFL cities (Tampa Bay was up there as well, but the Bucs would never allow it), and if two more franchises made it, it would probably be Oakland or Los Angeles, whichever market Al Davis wasn't in, and Baltimore or Portland. Baltimore had the NFL pedigree in the past, and was a strong team on the field, while Portland had one of the highest average percentages filled, albeit in a very small stadium, in the league.

Of course, this also doesn't take into account future USFL expansion, moves, and mergers, but those are some strong possible teams. Also working under the assumption here that the NFL would have gone to St. Louis sometime, and the USFL wouldn't. That's a franchise that never existed which could have made a strong argument to be part of the USFL merger.

This would likely result in the NFL shooting for a 40 team league by ATL 2011, with additional franchises in Toronto and Mexico City, at least.

This sounds awesome if only to have a team near me in Birmingham!

Anyways, I would also like to request a greater influence/respect for poets. I am one myself (not a great one) and would like to see some more attention paid to them. Maybe not on the level of say Steven King, but maybe more poets with Frost-esque influence on society (name is recognizable). One idea would be to have the Beats to be reduced in influence. Maybe Howl doesn't get published or is downplayed by the mainstream instead of criticized and brought to public attention. Or perhaps an alternate version of Keourac (who was indeed Catholic) breaks away from the Beats and starts providing more "respectable" literature. Other than that, maybe just through social programs more slam poetry is supported; it becomes a widely-used beacon for those who are alienated from the hip-hop/rap movement. I don't know as much about the history of poetry as I should. Maybe you can think of some ways to increase it's influence. And by the way, thanks for taking my ideas. I appreciate it.