Chungus Maximus
Banned
I have only included plausible PODs, i.e. major wars involving Greece and the Ottomans, as well as WWII, which saw a lot of ASB territorial changes like Russian Königsberg.
What was Greece’s best chance to reclaim Constantinople?
- Thread starter Chungus Maximus
- Start date
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
I'd say none. But if I have to chose I'd say after 1919. and with no successful Turkish independence. UK will not want to defend the area for ever and the Turks and Greeks will fight each other. The Germans will occupy it and deport the Jewish population. After WWII, if the butterflies allow, the UK might look for what to do with the region. Giving it to Greece is unlikely for rational reasons but the UK did more fcked up things in OTL. So they give the Thracian side of the City to Greece. Post 1945 (assuming that is the end of an alternate WWII) it will be a bit 'messy'.
By the way, none of those options are remotely possible. Catherines Greek Plan was closer to be possible. She really wanted a new Orthodox State, under her grandson. Post-1789 this chance is gone.
By the way, none of those options are remotely possible. Catherines Greek Plan was closer to be possible. She really wanted a new Orthodox State, under her grandson. Post-1789 this chance is gone.
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
Why would Russia tolerate a Greek state which is influenceable by other Great Powers rather than a punching bag that will agree to terms after a defeat in war?
ITTL, Russia decides that it really wants to restore Orthodox rule in Constantinople - Alexander sees it as great prestige for him and his empire. He would love to control the straits, but the British refuse to accept this. He does not want conflict with them so the new Greek state is a compromise.
I could see that working. He would be returning Constantinople to Christian control.
It's only possible but not very likely in the 1919-1923 period.
But even if Greece wins the war militarily (difficult but it can happen under the right circumstances) , the demographics in constantinople present a huge problem, not only the city is full of Turks but also Greece doesn't have the surplus population to replace them.
It would take a dreadful amount of ethnic cleansing, and of course naturally Turkey would wait for round two at the first opportunity.
But even if Greece wins the war militarily (difficult but it can happen under the right circumstances) , the demographics in constantinople present a huge problem, not only the city is full of Turks but also Greece doesn't have the surplus population to replace them.
It would take a dreadful amount of ethnic cleansing, and of course naturally Turkey would wait for round two at the first opportunity.
Maybe the Greeks just win their defense of the bits of the Ottoman Empire they got from WWI, other than that you could go with the tired notion of long live Byzantium.
Agree. The main obstacles were related to :
1st, the logistical restrictions of the Russian armies of that time: getting beyond the Danube was practically a limit while in the XIX (admittedly with a border already on the Danube) Adrianople was reached twice with Istanbul being within a practical reach. Of course, the limit was relative: with a better handling of supply issues most of the problems would be resolved.
2nd, naval/amphibious activities were more or less limited to the Aegean (and IIRC Levantine) and attempts to start Greek uprising on the islands. Leader of the expedition, Alexei Orlov, was a capable person but he was neither a general nor an admiral and definitely not a great strategist.
On a positive side, at this specific time a meaningful international opposition was minimal and would matter less if Catherine was a better manager and a stronger politician: she easily could have her army in a better shape than in OTL which would allow to have more and better supplied troops against the Ottomans and enough reserves to discourage Austria and Prussia from getting “ideas”.
If Russia is not involved in the 3rd and especially 4th coalitions (which means that they may or may not happen), it may do it alone, without the French. At that point the Bkack Sea fleet was quite good and if the Brits are on board, the Baltic squadron could be operating on the Med (as in OTL). Without the bulk of the Russian army fight8ng against the French the Ottomans are in a very bad position and can easily lose Constantinople and enough of a territory for creation of a Greek state.
Greece cannot 'reclaim' a city it has never owned, but at any point in history it was highly unlikely to be able to conquer it by itself. The Greco-Turkish war demonstrated the inherent weakness of the Greek position when invading non-Greek majority territories; prior to then its chances were even lower.
The only likely way for Greece to control the city would be for it to gain it as a compromise deal between the Great Powers. OTL Russia wanted it for themselves, while the British knew that the Turks had far more latent strength and ergo ability to hold the city than Greece ever would (and by the late 19th century were a lot less amenable to ethnic cleansing, at least when it did not turn a profit). These realities would need to be changed. Perhaps a Greece that is diplomatically savvy enough to position itself as a neutral administrator after some war when massively broke Turkish power? Or perhaps as a result of a Great Power patron that had no particular fetish for the city and which was content to maintain a naval base. Russia would never be that power, while the British would be unlikely to ever be so comfortable given their lack of power projection on land. Germany maybe could do it, or France in a pinch.
The only likely way for Greece to control the city would be for it to gain it as a compromise deal between the Great Powers. OTL Russia wanted it for themselves, while the British knew that the Turks had far more latent strength and ergo ability to hold the city than Greece ever would (and by the late 19th century were a lot less amenable to ethnic cleansing, at least when it did not turn a profit). These realities would need to be changed. Perhaps a Greece that is diplomatically savvy enough to position itself as a neutral administrator after some war when massively broke Turkish power? Or perhaps as a result of a Great Power patron that had no particular fetish for the city and which was content to maintain a naval base. Russia would never be that power, while the British would be unlikely to ever be so comfortable given their lack of power projection on land. Germany maybe could do it, or France in a pinch.
I think you need to specify if you want the "Country of Greece" or the "Byzantine Empire" to get "back" the city of Constantinople.
WW1 and WW2 seem to me, the most probable chances for "Greece" to get "back" the city, anyways.
WW1 and WW2 seem to me, the most probable chances for "Greece" to get "back" the city, anyways.
I read the Greek Plan, and I always loved it. I never see anything for it here on the site I think. (Surprisingly.) It would have undoubted charged everything about Europe and the Middle East. (If the Ottomans could survive, or the whole thing blows up once the Russians and Austrians smash them.)
Ban Kulin
Banned
Uhhh I know they reclaimed some ancient statues, columns, blocks for use as building material before the British could get there to preserve it?
Greece was formed out of a number of Greek majority territories as a modern nation state which previously had not existed, so no, it did not "reclaim" Athens.
Actually, the possibility was discussed even in this thread but not necessarily in relation to this specific plan: the main problem with the Greek Project was that it was created one war too late.
The real chance was missed during the 1st Ottoman War of Catherine II when the Russian army 1st time managed to get beyond the Danube and Russian navy ( first Archipellago Expedition) destroyed the Ottoman fleet at Chesma, sponsored the Greek uprising, established blockade of Dardanelles and conducted successful amphibious operations in Levant. Of course, the army was hamstrung by the supply problems (and prevailing mentality both in the army and at court) and the naval resources proved to be inadequate for the task of kicking the Ottomans out of Greece even if the Russians kept control over some of the islands. Of course, something can be said about the attempts to operate in more than one area simultaneously.
The Greek Project had been formulated only in 1782 by Bezborodko and edited by Potemkin (who almost managed to screw up the 2nd war) and, strictly speaking, was not even “Greek”: the main purpose was to create an independent “Dacia” out of Moldavia, Walachia and Bessarabia to act as a buffer between three empires. Byzantine part was defined as the best case scenario implementable only in the case of a complete destruction of the Ottoman Empire. Needless to say that combination of having Potemkin as commander of the main Russian army (and later an overall commander) and Austrians as the allies made the whole schema impractical
.